men just
realize that women do a better job at many things, and they
don't have testocerone to contend with! My life has
improved greatly
since I learned to be submissinve to my wife and not do my
own thing all
the time. It's a side of my nature I never explored and I'm
growing as a
person. It's been years since I've had this much
intellectual
stimulation. It makes me glad I bought a computer in
february!
Always Listening!
Spirit Wind
I used the "n word" very deliberately and ironically,
EXACTLY in order
to point out what kind of thinking that lies behind the
arguments I have
seen used here. I used it EXACTLY because I have been
fighting
racism actively during my entire life and because I hate
it.
That's what I sensed when I read your post. The word seemed
inserted for its shock value- its utility in raising
consciousness
as much as anything else, and you knew your audience. It
was used
in just the same way that many gay activists now refer
themselves
as 'queer' or that I might refer to myself as a 'boy,' a
'redneck,'
a 'pervert,' a 'pinko,' etc. I take the energy of the word
and throw
it back at those who would wield it to harm me. The mythic
magick
of Naming has all sorts of street uses. :)
The cant and the hypocrisy of politically correct Americans
makes me want
to puke.
Uhm, TW, Patricia is the =last= person I would call PC ;9
That said, I second the notion. It usually betrays a deep
ignorance of history and of one's own origins- a real
identity
problem not uncommon is these times. PC-speak, like its
mirror-twin alienation, is one of the devices of my class
enemy,
the Victim.
And =that= said, I must assert that PC usage and related
moral
posturing is not confined to Americans. We make an easy
target
because of our sheer size, visibilty and diversity, and
because
of the sins of the fathers.
That my murderous, cattle-thieving Scots ancestors burned
witches,
enslaved Africans and slaughtered Indians and their Rebel
neighbors
on their way to this Sunbelt paradise is not my lookout.
Repairing
the damage is. I have made so many un-PC choices for myself
and have
assumed so many uncool, unhip social roles that I just
don't have
time for either guilt or blaming. If I waste time on those,
I will
forget my myth, and my garden will die.
Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com
Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it
count.
The rest is hidden.
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 96 16:22:50 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: The 'n' word
Message-ID:
<960630202249_101342.2030_GHW109-1@CompuServe.COM
I wish that people would read the postings and evaluate
them in the light they
have been written. TimberWolf used the word 'nigger' purely
to highlight the
sort of word usage that can stem from bigoted beliefs.
Maybe us Europeans are
more open to the nuances of the English language, and are
not afraid to make use
of them without fearing unrelated and misrepresentative
rebukes. My race has
been maligned for years in Britain, *Irish jokes* have
flourished for countless
years until the politically correct storm troopers marched
in and their public
use was banned. What happened - an Irish comedian sat down
and wrote a whole
book full of new jokes. The Micks and Paddies can look
after and, thank heavens,
LAUGH at themselves.
I understood the use of the *n* word and I am sure that any
black member of
this group also understood the context in which it was
used.
Dennis (t.o.m)
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:40:02 +0300 (IDT)
From: sparta@netvision.net.il
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: We Care
Message-Id: <199606302040.XAA25064@mail.netvision.net.il
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thank you for your reply. I would like to be included on
your mailing list and
receive pertinent internet lists etc. As per your
instructions, I am again
including my e-mail address: sparta@netvision.net.il
Sincerely,
mark s. goldstein
pob 762
Hod HaSharon
Israel 45016
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:39:29 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-ID: <31D71031.32D1@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:
and some people are born with more of it
(like white Anglo-Saxon males) and some with less (like
niggers and women).
Now excuse me..I was not going to reply to this but I must.
In the
above TW says he was not using it as a derogatory term but
to illustrate
his point....so in this example then he is using the word
women to mean
a derogatory term..they are both enclosed in the same
paranthesis. why
didn't he use "n" and "b"s if his point was hyperbole? I
find it
derogatory...this has nothing to do with political
correctness.
Someone said that African Americans call themselves this
when they hang
out together...that is there privilege and among themselves
the
distribution of power is somewhat more equal. When the term
comes out
of a white man's mouth..the oppressor, where there is an
unequal
distribution of power...whitey has it all...then I find it
offensive.
If he had said "n"'s and "b"'s i would have gotten the
point.
I did read this post and the follow ups..every word. I am
not a stupid
(woman). I thought we were about making a kinder gentler
place for one
another here. If the word makes me uneasy..and I am not
alone ..must we
continue to say it over and over again to prove how
"liberal" we are.
I am Native American..and if anyone uses the word injun to
describe me,
or squaw, they will seriously make me very angry and hurt.
the word is a derogatory term and there is no reason to use
it. If you
must, you must...but be clear, for me, at least, it brings
tears to my
eyes...as much as if you called a jewish person a kyke .. I
remember the
holocaust...and the way we kidnapped and killed the African
American
here in my country..is a matter of shame I will not
compound by using
degrading and insulting language....it has nothing to do
with "political
correctness...it has to do with grace..and treating all
people with
dignity....
Patricia...
just standing the thing on its head saying it is just the
other way around,
women
are born with more of it ... it is the same kind of rot.
Racism, and sexism, and
false science.
First, it is genetic nonsense. When will people get into
their thick heads that
one-gene, one-character inheritance is utterly rare? When
those who profit
by ignorance and misinformation cease to misinform us, I
guess. Apart from the
fact that "characters" are usually arbitrary and subjective
categories,
nearly all
of them are determined by the interplay of several genes in
very different loci.
On different chromosomes, even. Very nearly the only
characters inherited
through one single gene are simple genetic disorders.
Simple things, simple
effects. And simple effects are usually bad effects. Three
embryos of four are
spontaneously aborted because of these simple errors (go
tell that to the Pope).
Second, intelligence---whatever it is (see below) is
determined as much, or
more,
by cultural, i.e. learned factors as by genetic
inheritance. There is no
"IQ test"
that is independent of culture. An intellectually
stimulating environment in
childhood, good education in youth, intellectually
challenging tasks in
adult life
---these are clearly more important to intellectual
performance than biological
inheritance is. Do you know that the average "IQ test"
result in the U.S.
has risen
by ten points since the 1940's? If intelligence was really
detemined
biologically,
the ONLY way of achieving this would be by means of a
massive eugenics
programme of the most brutal kind. But the cause is clearly
environmental.
Young people get more occasion to exercise their brains
than formerly.
Third, "intelligence" is not one single stuff. It is
multifactorial. There
is mechanical
intelligence, mathematical intelligence, artistic
intelligence, social and moral
intelligence---to name but a few. People who are devoid of
the last kinds
are not
intelligent. They are just clever, and they are dangerous.
I know not one test
which measures all of them (if they can be quantified); and
how are they to be
weighted relative to each other (again, if they can be
quantified)? Because of
this, the idea of one single "general intelligence"---the
'g' of the IQ
charlatans---
is just pseudoscientific voodoo.
I reiterate my firm belief that truth, and only truth, can
liberate. Myths and
lies can never set people free. The reason is that the
myths and the lies are
usually the same, regardless who are using them. They are
the same malignant
rot, only the supposed beneficiaries are different. For
instance, racism is
racism
and sexism is sexism, no matter the color or sex of those
on top.
How come that all these lying oversimplifications are so
popular? Why do we
persist in repeating them whenever they are fed to us, and
whatever their
burden? Reality is complicated. Understanding it, and
describing it, takes work,
hard and honest intellectual work. There seems to be
nothing that man fears
more. It also takes courage, and that too is a scarce
commodity. How much
simpler just to bounce back the silly slogans that our
masters and manipulators
are throwing at us!
BTW, for those who are interested in the reality behind the
IQ humbug, I can
recommend S.J. Gould's The Mismeasure of Man (1981 and many
later editions).
I do not agree with all of Steve Gould's ideas about
evolution (about which he
has written copiously and entertainingly in several other
books) but this
exposure
of the IQ scam is superb. However, it is a scientifically
reasoned book;
you will have to exercise your own intelligence when
reading it.
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:41:35 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: intelligence
Message-ID: <31D710AF.5616@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
and to the intelligence debate. It does not matter what
your born with
it matters what you do with it.
but if you are born with more..that is not cause to flaunt
your
superiority...it is cause to act even more responsibly
that's what i do with mine anyway...
patricia
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: 30 Jun 96 17:44:40 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-ID:
<960630214439_100410.1764_BHG97-1@CompuServe.COM
Please, Patricia ... I used the "n word" very deliberately
and ironically,
EXACTLY in order to point out what kind of thinking that
lies behind the
arguments I have seen used here. I used it EXACTLY because
I have been fighting
racism actively during my entire life and because I hate
it. People who exhibit
this kind of reaction, in my experience, do it because they
do not like to be
reminded of the contents of their own subconscious. Their
reaction is not
different from that of the Victorians in regard to
sex---clothing piano legs in
trousers and all that.
The cant and the hypocrisy of politically correct Americans
makes me want to
puke.
I think it was obvious to everyone why you used the term
but that
doesn't prevent it being offensive to some people. Sorry,
but that
bit about anyone objecting to the ironic use of racist
language is
probably racist underneath is not worthy of your usual high
standards of debate.
I felt uncomfortable at the time, even though given its
context, I never
considered it racist for a moment. Free speech is vitally
important and
I would usually just shirk it off, but I am disturbed by
your response here.
I think you should appreciate that people who dislike
racially abusive
terms, even when they are used in an ironic sense, are not
necessarilly
'politically correct'. There's so much hurt contains within
such terms
that we should use them only when absolutely necessary,
even when
we're sure we are on the side of the righteous.
I think it's better to be safe than sorry in a community in
which
you don't know the members personally and where it's easy
to
cause offence.
I'd also much rather share a drinking session with someone
who's
'politically correct' than a right wing, reactionary bigot.
Please don't
think I'm accusing you of that for a second Twolf, I've
read your post
and don't doubt your sincerity and decency for a second.
Be careful about how easy it is for the right wing to label
anyone
half liberal with this casual put-down though.
Jon
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 23:21:19 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <199606302317.XAA19523@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:40:09 -0500
From: steve unroe
Hello all,
Just wondered, do the Dominants and the submissives have
widly varying
degrees of theur respective traits, eg; a submissive not
really wanting
snip. snip.
I have read
some of the FAQ's that mention 'switches' but in my
understanding this
term applies to people who are Dominate part of the time
& submissive
the rest, not to people who dont have any real desire to do
the other.
We have read many hundreds of letters from men who find
that they
only have the desire to play a sexually submissive role on
occasions.
Some of the reasons given are as follows......
1. Inhibitions. Perhaps seeing it as a perversion which
they feel
guilty about enjoying and therefore not allowing themselves
to let
go unless it 'builds up'.
2. Not a high sex drive and only feeling submissive when
aroused.
3. Seeing it as an enjoyable variation from their usual
sexual
preferences. (This latter we are skeptical about).
We have taken the liberty of sending you something
privately which we
cannot send to the list as it's copyright is not held by
us.
sincerely,
Christine.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 18:49:53 -0400
From: gab@imi.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Mistress Lorraine's postings
Message-Id: <9606302249.AA11752@RezoNet.NET
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I don't know about the rest of you, but I think it's
unfortunate Mistress
Lorraine left the government. We need MORE like her in the
Halls of Power.
Since her sub is a former high ranking official, there are
no doubt more who
remain. These need to be harnessed and focused on giving us
good government,
rather than what we're getting. Perhaps the Department Of
Manpower and
Training should take on a whole new meaning under the likes
of M. Lorraine.
Mistress Lorraine - GO BACK, GO BACK!! :-))
Affectionally and with deep respect for your message,
Tony
Hi there!
With all due respect Patricia, Tracey's mail is coming from
the New Zealand
Treasury Dept. I believe you are being just a little bit
paranoid. IMO, I
couldn't give a good goddammed what the government knows
about me. I just
took a buyout from the Canadian government because I needed
to get out of
that oppressive environment. The irony is that they
actually paid me a lot
of $$$ to leave. Let them know all about my personal life.
They might just
learn how to live!! I have never been happier and NOBODY is
going to take
that away from me. Not even our feds!!
Proudly,
Mistress Lorraine Jobin
the subject "help".
femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 129
Today's Topics:
Re: Intelligence (Was: PC, 'n' words, etc)
Requesting your indulgence for a moment
Permission (Re: Intelligence )
Re: Intelligence
Re: Intelligence (Was: PC, 'n' words, etc)
Re: Trying to Understand
Fantasy and Reality reference Male Doms.
femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Trying to Understand
Re: Slowly Understanding
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Light at the end of the tunnel...
Re: intelligence
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 1996 16:46:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chase Vogelsberg
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence (Was: PC, 'n' words, etc)
Message-Id: <199606302347.QAA17648@eskimo.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Patricia pointed out:
timberwolf@bahnhof.se wrote:
(like white Anglo-Saxon males) and some with less (like
niggers and women).
he is using the word women to mean
a derogatory term..they are both enclosed in the same
paranthesis. why
didn't he use "n" and "b"s if his point was hyperbole? I
find it
derogatory...this has nothing to do with political
correctness.
I think T-wolf used the two words, together and in the same
parenthis, for
a reason. When I first saw it, it made me sit up and take
notice, the fur
on the back of my neck standing up and bristling. It seems
it had the
same result with a number of people here - as timberwolf
hoped for it to
have.
"niggers and women" - he picked the words quite
deliberately, both for
shock value, -and- because, on this list, in this
environment, the inc-
lusion of 'women' alongside 'nigger' made it clear, or at
least had the
intent of making it clear, that he wasn't denigrating
blacks/colored
people/Afro-Americans.
With his respect for womankind, evidenced here on this list
time and again,
I expect he thought it impossible for people -not- to
realize the irony he
meant to express, the hypocrasy he meant to expose. Sadly,
with his having
been on vacation and silent a lot recently, people could
see his words w/o
knowing his values. Flame, even I had to reread his post
two times, 'fore
I quite grasped what he was trying to say, an' I'm neither
the most unsubtle
of wolves nor the least familiar with his postings. (Modest
wolf that I
am
"Woman" too often is meant and used to describe a second
class citizen. As
is "nigger", "jew", "submissive" or any of countless other
derogatory
labels. Timberwolf pointed this out -- perhaps it would've
been better
with a post script reiterating that he didn't mean to
demean anyone, but
then again, under limitted circumstances, such as this
list, people should
not necessarily have to - the comunity is presumed to have
a background
which facilitates understanding.
(So far as my personal slant goes - I grew up in both New
York City and
-very- backwoods Maine, and went into the Marines for 8
years. There,
there was no whites or blacks - just different shades of
green. And yet,
there was no particular word which was outlawed - if only
because words
can be used as weapons. To this day, despite all I believe
in, I'd use
the word 'nigger' under some circumstances, if I thought it
would incense
someone to the point of stupidity, where I'd have a chance
of distracting
them from their original victim.
The crime isn't in a particular word, whether racist,
bully, or nigger.
The sin's in those who live in a manner to describe those
terms - and
yes, there's niggers out there. It's not a matter of being
dark skinned,
nor a matter of being prone to violence (as, for instance,
I am). It's
a matter of attitude, of personality, of what a person's
actions are going
to be when they know or think they'll get away with it.
'course, there'll always be those too stupid to shut their
mouths regardless
of the circumstances or consequences. People like me. But,
if you outlaw
the words, it's just going to drive the attitudes deeper,
as a matter of
darwinism and survival. Darwinism is good, when not
articificially in-
fluenced. An' yes, btw -- I figured I'm too vicious an'
screwed up for
the good of the species, to where I tell Ladies that no, I
ain't a can-
didate for the father of their children. Defender perhaps
though, mebbe
..... ;)
Oh!
----------
Laura:
Wouldst mind if I forwarded your wonderful post, 'bout used
for certain
Au'voir for now,
Chase (who didn't discuss his personal tendancies towards
BDSM here
because he believes in separation of church and state,
which this
being one of his state outlets.)
--
-- \_awless is : A wolf, wild at heart, with a heart of
darkness.
-- Chase Vogelsberg (lawless@netcom.com /
lawless@eskimo.com)
--
-- Some angels didn't have that far to fall.
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 08:17:26 CDT
From: bodie167@houston.email.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Requesting your indulgence for a moment
Message-Id: <9607010817.S870697142@houston.email.net
Concerning the request made by Mitch G. on where he could
find
WhAP! #s 1 through 4 (to stimulate my funny bone)
In NYCity, KINEMATICS on W.37th and Sixth have those issues
(or they did two
weeks ago.) You might also try COME AGAIN on E. 53rd ST and
1st ave. They
have back issues sometimes.
bodie167@houston.email.net
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 06:37:15 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Permission (Re: Intelligence )
Message-Id: <199607011337.GAA05727@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com
Lawless wrote:
Laura:
Wouldst mind if I forwarded your wonderful post, 'bout used
for
certain
Sure thing, go for it. :) Thanks for asking.
--
Laura Goodwin
"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"
(Song of Solomon, 6:10)
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:57:36 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence
Message-Id: <199607011753.TAA21829@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
And =that= said, I must assert that PC usage and related
moral
posturing is not confined to Americans. We make an easy
target
because of our sheer size, visibilty and diversity, and
because
of the sins of the fathers.
Certainly not, Coyote. Certainly not! We have our share of
it here too.
But somehow---that may of course be due to an inability too
see the
dirt under one's own carpet---the American variety seems
more
visible and more offensive (in both senses of the word!).
Also, our
cant is seldom about race; wich of course does not mean
that we are
not racists. We are all racists, and sexists. It is just
that some of us
are willing to recognize it and to do something about it.
Again, I retell the story told by a Swedish journalist. He
was on an
airplane on his way home from the U.S. In the seat next to
him sat
an extraordinarily beautiful black woman. But during the
flight,
a strange change occurred, and when they landed in Europe,
she
had changed into an extraordinarily beautiful American
woman!
It is just that amongst us, race is not necessarily THE
supreme
category to class people by. In Britain, it is class. In
the rest of
Europe (possibly with the exception of Ex-Yugoslavia) it is
sex!
My sincere regards,
Timberwolf
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:57:32 +0100
From: timberwolf@bahnhof.se
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Intelligence (Was: PC, 'n' words, etc)
Message-Id: <199607011753.TAA21825@sunny.bahnhof.se
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"niggers and women" - he picked the words quite
deliberately, both for
shock value, -and- because, on this list, in this
environment, the inc-
lusion of 'women' alongside 'nigger' made it clear, or at
least had the
intent of making it clear, that he wasn't denigrating
blacks/colored
people/Afro-Americans.
With his respect for womankind, evidenced here on this list
time and again,
I expect he thought it impossible for people -not- to
realize the irony he
meant to express, the hypocrasy he meant to expose.
(snip)
The crime isn't in a particular word, whether racist,
bully, or nigger.
The sin's in those who live in a manner to describe those
terms -
Thanks, dear Canine (Steve). On the nail as you so often
are.
Regards,
TWolf
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 13:01:50 -0600
From: IlUildi
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-Id: <31D8209E.15AA9B6F@ares.csd.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Greetings
Christine & David Stevenson wrote:
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:40:09 -0500
From: steve unroe
[snip snip snip]
I have read
some of the FAQ's that mention 'switches' but in my
understanding this
term applies to people who are Dominate part of the time
& submissive
the rest, not to people who dont have any real desire to do
the other.
We have read many hundreds of letters from men who find
that they
only have the desire to play a sexually submissive role on
occasions.
How about the other way around? I'm a switch who started
out Dom as a
teenager and have grown more sub as I get older and wiser.
;^) My basic
play rule is that she gets to tie me up if she wants (I
know, ladies
first is a chauvinistic attitude), but if I can get loose,
I'm going to
tie her up (and she won't get loose).
Some of the reasons given are as follows......
1. Inhibitions. Perhaps seeing it as a perversion which
they feel
guilty about enjoying and therefore not allowing themselves
to let
go unless it 'builds up'.
I think of it as equal rights. Maybe it's that I used to
feel guilty
about my Dom desires, and subbing seemed appropriate. Or
maybe it's
simple application of the golden rule. Whichever, I do like
it both
ways.
2. Not a high sex drive and only feeling submissive when
aroused.
Half right?
3. Seeing it as an enjoyable variation from their usual
sexual
preferences. (This latter we are skeptical about).
Yin and yang are contained in each other. I also think it
makes for a
balanced karmic diet.
Bill
--
The future is bright, fruitful and positive.
-Bob Marley
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 22:26:48 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Fantasy and Reality reference Male Doms.
Message-Id: <199607012245.WAA24977@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
There is an Irish comedian who uses the line.....
"It is only a sin if you enjoy it."
constantly throughout his act.
There is for many people with Sub Dom fantasies a quite
natural concern when we compare them with acceptable
behaviour in Real Life.
It is certainly true for me, that some of the most exciting
fantasies are those that would be the most unacceptable.
While I am primarily a sub male, I do have an erotic
response to
fantasies and stories where the girl protests her
unwillingness. It is
more enjoyable to imagine her tears and begging and
pleading if one
imagines they are Real.
But I am comfortable in the certain knowledge that I would
never do it
for real. I haven't always been this comfortable. For many
years I was
concerned that I might be a bad person for thinking this
way.
One theory is that these fantasies may serve a purpose,
rather than
just simply be an additional turn on. If they first occur,
as they
usually do, before we are full grown adults, then they are
probably
there to help us deal with fear and anger.
Many of us take a frightening or traumatic situation in
childhood and
with sexual fantasy turn it something pleasurable. Equally
we can do
this in adulthood, we take an unacceptable part of our
nature and make
it pleasurable as a fantasy. It doesn't mean we will do it.
In fact I
believe it does the opposite, it helps us to see it as
unacceptable
while at the same time allows us to enjoy it.
Bdsm role play (and fantasy) takes phenomena like
rejection,
humiliation and aggression and creates a situation where
these
phenomena exist, but combines them with a partner who loves
us
despite them. The despite them is the unacceptable fantasy.
The acceptable reality is that in consensual bdsm the truth
is
that we are loved because of them.
We may well be frightened that if we exhibit certain types
of
behaviour we will be rejected. The submissive male might be
afraid of
being rejected for being weak-willed and not the macho
image that
society has him half convinced he should be.
These dominant fantasies equally reflect a knowledge that
any
sensible person would tell us where to go, if we tried to
impose it
upon them. We may well be dealing with similar fear here.
Fear that we
will be rejected for thinking this way.
So these fantasies are just ways to protect us from certain
realities
and fears, by making them acceptable fun.
Many psychologists now accept Robert Stoller's
defininition.
Fantasy:- "a scenario which the author has been working on
since
childhood . . . containing elements of risk and security
derived from childhood . . . into an acceptable form
celebrated by orgasm".
This is as opposed to the Freudian model of a one incident
Trauma
which we could find to explain the way we are. We are in
fact writing
and re-writing in our heads both the experiences we had,
and the ones
we might like to have. We interweave them and play with
them so that
we can come to terms with the isssues while still enjoying
the
thrills.
It is good therapy while at the same time allowing us
sexual
pleasure.
'It is only a sin if you enjoy it.'
David Stevenson.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 15:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id:
<199607012226.PAA04250@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 529
There have been a lot of Femdom threads lately. I'd just
like to take
a moment to ask folks to try to adhere to the topic of
Femsupremacy.
That can simply mean relating your thoughts on Femdom that
extra step
to Femsupremacy.
Dee-Ann
List Administrator
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 96 18:32:22 PDT
From: Jack Clotworthy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Trying to Understand
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii
Marvelous!!! 'Just proves that diversity of the human
species is a real JOY!
Wouldn't it be awful if we were all cut from the same mold?
The genetic
crap-shoot makes the difference. Viva la difference!
jack
-------------------------------------
E-mail: jclotwor@access.digex.net
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 16:06:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dee-Ann LeBlanc
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Slowly Understanding
Message-Id:
<199607012306.QAA04314@catherine.renaissoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1083
Tel 4715 914 wrote:
I didn't expect such a heated response from you Patricia, I
didn't mean to
offend you. I simply chose your response because I was
using it as a
comparative to other posts, like Laura's, which is another
perspective.
I am not in a sub-domm relationship. The only domm
relationships I have had,
have been forced. Perhaps this is the reason why I am
having trouble
understanding that people have this sort of lifestyle and
actually pursue and
enjoy being in one.
You may find it helpful to read the newsgroups
alt.sex.femdom and
alt.sex.bondage. Also, the FAQ's to these newsgroups (which
are
posted once or twice a month, I forget). There's a lot of
ads and
junk in them, but if you sift through you can find
discussions on why
folks are into BDSM, etc.
Dee-Ann
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 1996 18:13:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:
There have been a lot of Femdom threads lately. I'd just
like to take
a moment to ask folks to try to adhere to the topic of
Femsupremacy.
That can simply mean relating your thoughts on Femdom that
extra step
to Femsupremacy.
Big affirmative on that one, Dee-Ann! I've made that
mistake as often as
anyone else, simply because this world is so new to me that
I sometimes
have difficulty separating the degrees of the entire
spectrum.
From now on I'll endeavor to post my FemDom oriented
thoughts to a more
appropriate group. Sure wish the others had more
intellectual quality
and less garbage, though :-(
Peace,
Barry
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 14:29:01 +1200
From: Tracey
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt
Notification Requested)
Subject: Light at the end of the tunnel...
Message-ID:
<8448321002071996/A00973/DALEK/11A712A03000*@MHS
Content-Identifier: 11A712A03000
Gosh, my eyes are wide and open. Thank you for all your
responses to my
questions.
Yes, I work for the Treasury Dept of the NZ Government, not
the US. I've yet
to travel overseas. No, I'm not big brother/sister watching
and waiting to
turn you all in if I see and read anything that's
pornographic or if I see the
word "abortion" 8^). I'm all for free speech!
All I want is to understand different lifestyles. Gosh I
supported the gay
bill here in NZ (which was passed - wahoo!). I had many
heated debates with
blinkered idiots who thought gay people just have
unprotected, spreading AIDs
sex. I'm not a lesbian, I just didn't think it was fair to
have a law in place
to stop people loving each other, regardless of sexual
preference.
I also correspond with a woman who I met through a mailing
list like this. She
is bisexual and I ask her all sorts of personal questions
about her sexuality.
I just want knowledge and she doesn't mind my asking.
I think I finally understand what this list is all about.
To have a good domm
relationship, is to have a consenual domm relationship. I
now know that the
sub wants to be treated like this and why it is so
important when a sub writes
the way he does (eg, capitalisation). If I read any bad
publicity about BDSM
stuff - and you have to agree, these types of relationships
don't get great
reviews, I feel I could argue the point to defend the
relationship because I
think I have enough information and knowledge to do so.
Same as being a
defender of gay rights when I'm not gay.
Oh by the way, if you were trying to personally email me,
we are in the process
of updating our system which could the reason why it
bounces.
On the "N" word - I don't really care what context this
word is used, I hate
it. I don't like racial slurs regardless of who says them.
Just like I hate
the word "C" (female anatomy).
Tracey
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 1996 23:37:44 -0500
From: Roland Foy
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: intelligence
Message-ID: <31D8A798.606@pclink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Noble wrote:
and to the intelligence debate. It does not matter what
your born
with it matters what you do with it.
but if you are born with more..that is not cause to flaunt
your
superiority...it is cause to act even more responsibly
that's what i do with mine anyway...
patricia
YOUR intellect has been welcome & valued here for some
time.
TWolf's point is well taken, never assume a race, sex, or
group can be
defined by a single measure. The "TONE" of his post might
offend, but
the message was correct.
As far as levels of Female/male smarts are concerened, guys
tend to forage for the nest, Gals tend to build it. A
symbionic real-
ationship for sure. If we can all try to be more tolerant
of the other
sex, life might be more mellow. Females are the base, males
are an
offshoot. Simply put, men are acessories, Women are the
core.
Roy
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 03:41:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607020741.DAA12700@infoweb.magi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Could someone tell me how to subscribe to that 'other'
newsgroup? I sure
like this one, though. Thanks for taking me aboard!
On Mon, 1 Jul 1996, Dee-Ann LeBlanc wrote:
There have been a lot of Femdom threads lately. I'd just
like to take
a moment to ask folks to try to adhere to the topic of
Femsupremacy.
That can simply mean relating your thoughts on Femdom that
extra step
to Femsupremacy.
Big affirmative on that one, Dee-Ann! I've made that
mistake as often as
anyone else, simply because this world is so new to me that
I sometimes
have difficulty separating the degrees of the entire
spectrum.
From now on I'll endeavor to post my FemDom oriented
thoughts to a more
appropriate group. Sure wish the others had more
intellectual quality
and less garbage, though :-(
Peace,
Barry
___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to
listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list
commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the
subject "help".
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 04:12:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607021112.EAA05350@netcom14.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1974
Lorraine Jobin wrote:
Could someone tell me how to subscribe to that 'other'
newsgroup? I sure
like this one, though. Thanks for taking me aboard!
alt.sex.femdom is the Usenet newsgroup that "was formed in
February, 1994 for the purpose of discussing relationships
in which a woman is dominant -- most often in a sexual
sense,
but not always -- in a consensual relationship with her
male
or female partner (or partners)."
This from Jay Doubleyou, the newsgroup's founder and worthy
steward, to whom this list is very much indebted. a.s.fd is
this
list's 'mother group,' one could say. I've taken the
liberty of sending you his complete Welcome message
separately.
Related newsgroups are alt.sex.bondage,
alt.personals.bondage and
the little-used (for now) alt.women.supremacy. (a.w.s. is a
bit like
'us' in content when it's active, but gets periodically
littered
by rude boys and spammers.) Other newsgroups exist for
those whose
interest in FS is more political or cultural in some way.
To see a Usenet newsgroup at all, your Internet provider
must
give provide access not only to Usenet but to the groups
that
interest you. If they don't, you may want to go shopping
for a
new service ;d
Users of some services (e.g, the Matchmaker systems) can't
get
Usenet at all. ;[
Barry commented:
I sometimes
have difficulty separating the degrees of the entire [FS]
spectrum.
That's exactly the deal: Female Supremacy =is= a spectrum.
Enjoy, and a belated Happy Canada Day ;]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com
Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it
count.
The rest is hidden.
femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 130
Today's Topics:
Following up the Stevenson's post
Dee Ann's advisory:
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Dee Ann's advisory:
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
genesis consequences
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
the significance of the Feminine (fwd)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 09:23:55 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com,
femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:
This is a first post to the group so if any faux pas are
made please
correct us gently.
In message <199607012245.WAA24977@mail.telepac.pt,
Christine & David
Stevenson (who we thank for mentioning this group's
existence to
us)
Many of us take a frightening or traumatic situation in
childhood and
with sexual fantasy turn it something pleasurable.
Bdsm role play (and fantasy) takes phenomena like
rejection,
humiliation and aggression and creates a situation where
these
phenomena exist, but combines them with a partner who loves
us
despite them. The despite them is the unacceptable fantasy.
The acceptable reality is that in consensual bdsm the truth
is
that we are loved because of them.
Robert was very interested to read this. De facto his
bondage fantasies
can be precisely dated to the time when as a highly
unwilling
participant in the English private school system, aged
about 11, a very
nasty bully consistently prevented him going to the loo at
night. The
result has been an utter detestation of bullies in real
life carried to
the point of resignation in management level jobs, but as
any God may
live, it was during those experiences that somehow they
were turned to
pleasurable account by an inventive mind which dreampt up
all sorts of
bondage ideas from which he finally emerged triumphant.
Very strange maybe but true and I am grateful to the
Stevenson's own
post for giving me the stimulus to share this. This may not
seem too
related to femsupremacy, that came later down the line, no
woman has
ever bullied me the way men have (apart perhaps from a
certain prime
minister?).
Another idea may seem like old hat to some but we are still
interested
to hear comments (and it does offer an angle on the
femsupremacy
debate):
Is there a possibility that the real stimulus to the
creation of the
fall story in Genesis and in particular the apportionment
of blame and
the origin of wrongdoing being placed at woman's feet,
being followed by
that fateful curse, lies in the differing nature of the
male and female
orgasms?
From my observation (limited in scope :-)), men can go
through quite a
sudden post orgasmic mood change that women do not seem so
prone to.
In an ancient society with men already enjoying political
dominance and
seeking solutions for the world order they found themselves
in, might it
have seemed quite plausible to decide to blame the object
who at once
drew and emptied them sexually for the ills of the world
they endured?
Unacceptable maybe but plausible and suitable to those in
charge?
Of course I could not imagine such a presentation having
much
credibility nowadays (certainly not with myself nor with
womankind) but
could these thoughts explain the unfortunate process that
was to have
such an influence in Judaeo-Christian society?
If you need to remind yourselves of the text it is Genesis
3.1-19.
Meantime and having just had the sad media diet of Russian
politics with
its peculiar combination of crime, machoness and struggling
democracy to
wake up with, take care, sadly not all in the Garden is yet
rosy.
--
robert and fiona forsythe
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:53:30 CDT
From: bodie167@houston.email.net
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Dee Ann's advisory:
Message-Id: <9607020753.S877130059@houston.email.net
There have been a lot of Femdom threads lately. I'd just
like to
take
a moment to ask folks to try to adhere to the topic of
Femsupremacy.
That can simply mean relating your thoughts on Femdom that
extra step
to Femsupremacy.
My question is: Is there a similar Female Dominance posting
to which
those with that interest could be guided? If so, posting
the address
might help.
bodie
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:09:45 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id:
<199607021409.HAA11190@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com
I sometimes have difficulty separating the degrees of the
entire [FS]
spectrum.
Barry
That's exactly the deal: Female Supremacy =is= a spectrum.
coyote sings
The personal is political. Why must a woman's power end at
the kitchen
or bedroom door? In the living room she has to bring him a
drink, but
in the bedroom she can throw it in his face? What?
Women: take over the whole damn house! And the senate! Why
stop there?
Why stop anywhere? A woman's place is everyplace!
Say it with me, now:
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!
Say it again!
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!
Ahh! Thanks. Now *I* at least feel better... :)
--
Laura Goodwin
"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"
(Song of Solomon, 6:10)
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:32:27 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id:
<199607021432.HAA12927@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com
You wrote:
In an ancient society with men already enjoying political
dominance
and seeking solutions for the world order they found
themselves in,
might it have seemed quite plausible to decide to blame the
object who
at once drew and emptied them sexually for the ills of the
world they
endured?
Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men
realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...a revolution
of thought
took place, with men ultimately asserting their claim to be
thought the
primary parent. For a very long time women have been
lowered in status
more and more, since people believed until very recently
that males
contributed the "seed" and women were the "soil" within
which human
life grew. This view was exploded fairly recently when our
modern
scientists showed that women contribute as much genetically
as men to
the offspring. Now, women's parental primacy is again being
asserted,
since not only are they equal to men at conception, but are
in total
control of the whole rest of the process of gestation,
birth and
nuturance. At best, it can be proven that men play a
necessary role in
conception only; whether they play any other role in the
offspring's
life is apparently optional, although certainly they can
and should
play a major supporting role for the mothers of the race,
and for the
sake of their own offspring.
The history of men's ascendance at woman's expense is a
long one, and
the Bible is one document that shows the struggle in
garbled form. RE:
the Adam/Eve story...apparently the half-assed explaination
offered by
patriarchal conquerors for the icons of the naked goddess,
tree of
life, etc. that their Goddess worshipping predecessors left
littered
all over the ancient world.
--
Laura Goodwin
"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"
(Song of Solomon, 6:10)
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 07:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Dee Ann's advisory:
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 2 Jul 1996 bodie167@houston.email.net wrote:
My question is: Is there a similar Female Dominance posting
to which
those with that interest could be guided? If so, posting
the address
might help.
bodie
bodie,
As coyote sings pointed out in an earlier posting,
alt.sex.femdom
would be your best bet if your server provides it. On my
Pine Server you
can access it by typing galt.sex.femdom (the g is for
"get"), then
subscribe by typing s. Check your documentation to see how
to do it on
your server.
This is a newsgroup instead of a newslist so you get a lot
of
garbage, flames, spams, etc., but there is also much
worthwhile discussion.
Peace,
Barry
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 10:40:52 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-ID: <31D95F24.39B8@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I second, third, fourth etc. that
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!
Patricia
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 08:14:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607021514.IAA28115@netcom18.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1258
Laura Goodwin woke us in the West up with this exhortation:
Women: take over the whole damn house! And the senate! Why
stop there?
Why stop anywhere? A woman's place is everyplace!
Say it with me, now:
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!
Say it again!
A WOMAN'S PLACE IS EVERY PLACE!
Ahh! Thanks. Now *I* at least feel better... :)
Well! And a bright good morning to you, too, Ma'am! :D
This is just my excuse to segue over to mention the
Terrible Visage of our local US Attorney, Janet Napolitano,
who has just busted the Viper Militia that you might be
seeing on the news. An exemplary woman in public life, and
one with the type of future that Laura is talking about.
Believe it. Meanwhile, watch her kick some 'patriot' ass.:)
There, now I feel better, too; :)
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com
Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it
count.
The rest is hidden.
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:25:10 +0100
From: robert and fiona forsythe
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: genesis consequences
Message-ID:
Thankyou Laura for replying to this post, you wrote:
Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men
realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...a revolution
of thought
took place, with men ultimately asserting their claim to be
thought the
primary parent.
In all sincerity I would greatly appreciate some evidence
for this. In
many respects I am ignorant about recent academic work in
this sphere.
All sorts of things have brought me here, not least some
half references
in an Open University course I teach (but they were not
backed up by
evidence).
Many moons ago I did a research degree involving Genesis
but I was more
interested in the issue of God and suffering at the time
and lived with
what in retrospect is monstrous (the Fall story).
Since then life's avenues have left me researching model
railway history
on a hillside in Northern England supported by a very
remarkable career
librarian with whom my notions of "being a man" have
undergone much re-
appraisal.
I seem to have lost contact with the academia that could
inform (amongst
the many other things that have to be done to earn bread),
but my
interest in the challenge of Genesis is sincere (quite of
my own bat I
have written another MSS about it after the MA one). Now
wanting to try
to shape further my thoughts on Genesis 3 any pointers to
material that
would evidence this "critical moment" of awareness of
impregnation would
be carefully pondered over.
I had noticed your Song of Solomon reference here and in
others from
you. It is an irony of ironies that just when that book
(BIBLE) has
blown you up with annoyance along comes something setting
out a very
different agenda. Thankyou for bringing that to the fore.
For us one of
the things, against all the obstacles, that still keeps the
two of us
struggling with some form of Christian religious belief is
the idea that
perhaps at its heart is the supremacy of personhood above
all the
traumas of gender (and hence the idea that the relation of
persons in
the Godhead as a lifeforce (the Trinity) is potentially a
liberating and
exciting one).
Many thanks for your time and although it may appear that
it is the man
tittle tattling away here (and it is just now), the one who
I adore sees
all I write and is very capable of making her presence
felt.
robert and fiona forsythe
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:57:24 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607022153.VAA18985@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
There is some confusion about newsgroups, and mailing
lists.
Fem Supremacy is a mailing list. And a thoroughly good one
too!
Unfortunately I sometimes get carried away and think it is
a
Fem-Dom mailing list.
For when I'm in that mood I ought to limit myself to the
other
lists I'm subscribed too. (The Pearl) and (SubMiss).
Unfortunately they are not strictly Fem-Dom. AT LEAST half
their
members swing the other way.
As Coyote Sings wrote we could use the newsgroup
alt.sex.femdom,
but I so much prefer Email. Reading newsgroups soon runs up
the
phone bill.
Considering myself slapped and reprimanded, and promising
to try
harder.
David Stevenson.
On 2 Jul 96 at 3:41, femsupremacy@renaissoft.com wrote:
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 03:41:28 -0400 (EDT)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
From: aehthex@magi.com (Lorraine Jobin)
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Reply-to: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Could someone tell me how to subscribe to that 'other'
newsgroup? I sure like this one, though. Thanks for
taking me aboard!
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:57:25 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Message-Id: <199607022153.VAA19072@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Fortunately for those who have stubbornly tightassed
providers
there is a way to see alt.sex.femdom by Email.
It is complicated and involves sending off messages to
agora
servers. But if anyone wants instruction I have several
files of
material on the subject.
Trying to behave. :(
David Stevenson.
On 2 Jul 96 at 4:12, From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To see a Usenet newsgroup at all, your Internet provider
must give provide access not only to Usenet but to the
groups that interest you. If they don't, you may want to
go shopping for a new service ;d Users of some services
(e.g, the Matchmaker systems) can't get Usenet at all. ;[
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 17:09:09 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I am certain this posting will cause a lot of controversy.
And I certainly
hope no one -- especially Laura and Patricia -- take it the
wrong way. And
I apologize now if I misread their postings.
But it really pains me to read responses like this,
especially as someone
who has the deepest of respect for everything on earth:
plants, animals,
geological features, the environment ... you name it.
But certainly men must be good for something. Or at least
some men are good
for something. Or at least some men are decent people.
I really don't understand why people would say that men are
good only for
reproduction ... and the time may come when they may not be
necessary for
that.
Do you really believe that?
I know Laura has written often about her husband and what a
fine person he
is. Aren't there other men out there like him?
Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate,
understanding,
don't beat their wives, don't molest their children, and
try to live a
decent life as best they can?
Aren't there men who truly respect and cherish women (and
I'm not talking
in a dom-sub relationship)?
Aren't men good for something else than reproduction?
I really can't believe that people would have thoughts like
this about the
opposite sex.
I could go on, but I am really upset.
I'm sure (or at least I hope) that I have misread this and
I'm begging for
a clarification. And I'm sure I will have to further
clarify what I have
just written after I give it more thought.
And please be gentle with me, I most certainly don't mean
to insult your
intelligence with this response.
Thank you
Peter
Laura Goodwin wrote:
Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men
realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...
to which Patricia responds:
Actually, while that may have been some of the
psychological gobbly gook
that was going around at the time, the struggle against
women by men for
dominance was a political and economic one. It was the
subjugation of
tribes, clans and local power against centralized,
hierarchal power
systems. When 9 million women were burned as witches in
Europe, it was
as much an economic revolution as a church led one. The
church just
helped and gave legitimacy to the misogyny (sound
familiar).
For example: Men were writing down and learning "medicine".
These male
professinal doctors were new on the scene and most people
still went to
their local healer "in most cases a woman". The new male
docs could get
no patients. Male doctors were invasive and painful...while
local women
healers offered more holistic solutions and used herbs with
ancient
known medicinal powers. Thus, the witch is over the boiling
pot. They
had to get rid of these women in order to have people go to
these new
male doctors. This is just one example of one great
motivator for the
great burnings.
An interesting side note to this, is the use of the name
faggots for
homosexual men. It comes from the witch burnings. When a
woman or
women were staked to burn and all the wood was piled
underneath them to
start the fire....many times male homosexuals were thrown
on the pile as
it started to burn....thus the term faggots.
Laura wrote:
At best, it can be proven that men play a necessary role in
conception only;
Actually men do not any longer have to be alive to play
that necessary
role in conception. Male sperm can be frozen and kept for
years and
still work...this cannot be done with the female egg. When
men
sometimes tell me I am not very kind, I say, you are here
aren't
you..that proves the most important kindness. Many feminist
separatists
have talked about the day men are no longer on the planet
in any large
scale. In those days, sperm will be frozen and used to
produce only
female children....since sex can be identified before
birth. Some males
with superior genetic backgrounds will be allowed to be
born...kept as
cattle in pens...when old enough to be milked for their
sperm..they will
be and then done away with. While i do not subscribe to
this dream of
the future (although when patriarchy really pisses me
off...I do think
of it) as of this moment and into the ancient
future...males are really
no longer needed, at least, for the physical contribution
they give to
childbirth.
Patricia
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 15:05:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com (Female Supremacy List)
Subject: the significance of the Feminine (fwd)
Message-Id: <199607022205.PAA04313@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 2843
I also subscribe to the Pagan Home and to the Crone mailing
lists, where the
text below was posted. It seems to speak to the heart of
our business here
and is a definite Keeper. (Crone is a mailing list for and
about Wise
Women of a certain age in life, and is especially about
their spiritual
and health concerns. It is also open to interested younger
women and to some
very gentle men.) The poster is a Crone.
c.s.
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:47:29 -0500
Sender: CRONE
Subject: the significance of the feminine
To: Multiple recipients of list CRONE
Dear crones and coeeys,
Last weekend I went to Omega to a workshop by Marion
Woodman which was
wonderful. In her truly feminine way she spiralled around
the subject in a
way which my masculine found very annoying, but my feminine
appreciated.
Her technique worked because by the end of the weekend my
masculine was in
abeyance and my feminine was the dominant one--not so usual
for me.
She stressed that the patriarchy was not the masculine it
was a power
principle. I need to hear that because I often fall into
male bashing and
yet I often work from my masculine. (I am a big fan of Walt
Whitman's
...do I contradict myself, well, then, I contradict
myself.)
She said that when you commit to the feminine, your life is
changed. You
have committed to spontaneity rather than the masculine
perfection. I hope
I can do it because giving up the drive to perfection
sounds good to me
right now.
Marion Woodman said that if the mother unconsciously hates
being a woman
the girl child picks it up. Maybe that was my problem all
along; poor
mother, poor me.
She also said, if you want to keep somthing sacred in your
soul, to honor
your own treasure, keep it secret. I have never been able
to do that. I
like to share my treasures.
She quoted Margaret Mead who said that the greatest force
on theplanet is
the post-menopausal woman with zest.
At the end of the workshop she had us divide into threes.
One was the mind
who fed images to the body. One was the heart who fed love
to the body.
One was the body who closed her eyes and danced to the
music. We all had a
turn at each thing. The idea was to get out of the mind and
to be all
heart or all body or all mind.
[handle and some personal remaerks deleted]
...all the Goddesess are one Goddess...And to every woman
her own truth,
and the Goddess within. Adapted from The Mists of Avalon
END
femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 131
Today's Topics:
Re: genesis consequences
Re : Femdom
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: femdom/femsupremacy
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Pat and Peter
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 16:31:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: genesis consequences
Message-Id: <199607022331.QAA11927@netcom15.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 5018
Welcome, Fiona and Robert:
You wrote
Thank you Laura for replying to this post, you wrote:
Women were the dominant sex until about the time that men
realized that
they were responsible for impregnating women...a revolution
of thought
took place, with men ultimately asserting their claim to be
thought the
primary parent.
In all sincerity I would greatly appreciate some evidence
for this. In
many respects I am ignorant about recent academic work in
this sphere.
It's hard to find (though some here will disagree with me),
but
what Laura says about the sudden interest in paternity is
bang on.
Add in the industrialization of hunting ( pastoralism) and
of
gathering ( agriculture) which created the novelties we
know
today as Property and Government, and you have quite a
brew.
Good-bye to the days when women ran things and the men
hunted and
boasted of the hunt in their cave paintings. (Perhaps the
old days
are lamented in the myth of Cain & Abel? - I dunno.)
The Hebrews (along with other frontier people coping with
both
the old and the new) got very mixed messages about all
this, and
were profoundly influenced by their property-owning,
statist
neigbors.
Many moons ago I did a research degree involving Genesis
but I was more
interested in the issue of God and suffering at the time
and lived with
what in retrospect is monstrous (the Fall story).
I have made the best of its contradictions, and take it as
a giant practical joke on the part of Woman (Eve - 'Ava)
and
her Serpent friend (Wisdom/Sophia, Self-Awareness, Goddess)
as
they savor the Bad News to the now property-obsessed Adam:
"No more hunting trips with the boys for you, Sparky- now
you
have to go out and get a =job=. Toast thou art, and to
toast thou
thou shalt return." The Serpent never deserted Eve (or any
of us).
I seem to have lost contact with the academia that could
inform (amongst
the many other things that have to be done to earn bread),
but my
interest in the challenge of Genesis is sincere (quite of
my own bat I
have written another MSS about it after the MA one). Now
wanting to try
to shape further my thoughts on Genesis 3 any pointers to
material that
would evidence this "critical moment" of awareness of
impregnation would
be carefully pondered over.
Start with the contexts provided by OT criticism: Gen. 3 is
probably, like all of Genesis, a fairly 'recent' cut &
paste
of ancient oral stories from several sources, slapped
together
and edited to suit the politics of the (probably
post-Exilic) day.
3:1-19 is a mix of J & E material slapped into a P
document. The
so-called Fall story slipped past the guys doing the
editing because
they just didn't get it, even as they colored it. She Who
Is
survives in that story for those who care to see Her,
winking
hugely at Eve and her friends.
I had noticed your Song of Solomon reference here and in
others from
you. It is an irony of ironies that just when that book
(BIBLE) has
blown you up with annoyance along comes something setting
out a very
different agenda. Thank you for bringing that to the fore.
For us one of
the things, against all the obstacles, that still keeps the
two of us
struggling with some form of Christian religious belief is
the idea that
perhaps at its heart is the supremacy of personhood above
all the
traumas of gender (and hence the idea that the relation of
persons in
the Godhead as a lifeforce (the Trinity) is potentially a
liberating and
exciting one).
Laura and some others have helped me a lot with all of
that.
The Bible is in the public domain- it is not the secured
property of a few Ayatollahs, but a collection of stories
that
belong to all of us and are for our own light to
illuminate.
Jews and Christians are not bound by the perceived gender
messages
in the Bible, any more than we are bound to herd goats in
the
desert or grow olives for a living or to slaughter
Canaanites.
Jews have a number of hopeful alternative messages in the
Torah
and the prophets (admittedly not always happy campers) (See
'The
Book of J') and Christians have the Christ-event itself and
Jesus'
earlier proclaiming an end to religion and all its
patriarchal
baggage and enjoining us to lighten up. :]
I'll send you some 'She Who is' posts and cites privately
if
you wish. The folks here already know I'm a Space Catholic
of the
Anglican mystic stripe and deserve to be spared the
details. ;P
But it seems we're here for about the same reasons.
Peace
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com
Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it
count.
The rest is hidden.
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: 02 Jul 96 19:36:42 EDT
From: OhEadhra <101342.2030@CompuServe.COM
To: FS
Subject: Re : Femdom
Message-ID:
<960702233641_101342.2030_GHW92-1@CompuServe.COM
I do hope that JW will not object, but I remember when
Compuserve banned access
to the Femdom newsgroup I sent a mail to JW to ask how I
could read the
postings. He kindly replied with instructions as to how ,
postings to the group
could reach my mail box.
I suggest, therefore, if your provider cannot access
Femdom, you email JW at :
juu@netcom.com (if it is still the same)
asking for instructions.
Be warned - if you think FS is a busy group - be prepared -
Femdom is EXTREMELY
busy !
Be warned - The level of discussion is NOT on the level of
this group (apologies
JW)
JW is an extremely helpful person, running a busy group -
be patient.
If remember correctly, JW has contributed to this group on
occasions, so he
might post some useful information himself.
Dennis (t.o.m)
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 20:51:32 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID:
FEfor something. Or at least some men are decent people.
I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is
true of all of the men in my "neighborhood." If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...I kind of
like meeting mythical creatures.
FEI really don't understand why people would say that men
are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not
be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?
Yes.
Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate,
understanding,
CybErotiComm Online
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 1996 21:14:22 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I knew someone would post a message along these lines.
I knew there would be a reply from a woman who has met
nothing but abuse
from men all her life.
I guess I was very fortunate. I grew up in a family that
was full of
nothing but love and understanding. It was a family
straight out of Leave
It To Beaver. There was absolutely no abuse of any kind.
And it was the
same way with my friends. It was that or they did a
terrific job of hiding
the skeletons in their closets.
My father was a kind compassionate man who went beyond his
means to provide
for me. He was my best friend. He was fully at ease with
high-powered
politicians or bums on the street. And the most important
thing he taught
me was to be respectful of others. To overlook their
shortcomings. When you
scratch deep enough, you'll find a sensitive human.
And he wasn't the only man on earth to do this. And I'm
sure that Coyote
and myself are not the only two men on earth who feel this
way.
I'm awfully sorry that the men you have come across have
not been ethical,
moral and decent. And I can see how you feel that way.
I can't offer you any advice, only my deepest regrets that
this has
happened to you.
Peter
FEfor something. Or at least some men are decent people.
I don't know why it is Peter, but I have not known any
ethical, moral decent men. I never had a man who did
not cheat on me, and I have had more than one man abuse me
physically, verbally and emotionally. I have almost been
*killed* by the one who professed to love me most. I can-
not blankly say this is true of all men--or maybe it is
true of all of the men in my "neighborhood." If you know
another GOOD one (Besides our own Coyote of course...) I'd
be more than willing to give him the once over...I kind of
like meeting mythical creatures.
FEI really don't understand why people would say that men
are good only for
FEreproduction ... and the time may come when they may not
be necessary for
FEthat.
FEDo you really believe that?
Yes.
Aren't there other men who are kind, gentle, compassionate,
understanding,
CybErotiComm Online
___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to
listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list
commands, send
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subject "help".
the subject "help".
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 1996 21:15:01 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Following up the Stevenson's post
Message-ID: <31D9F3C4.2902@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
it is the rule rather than the exception...that is why we
are skeptical
when we hear about all these really good men.
Patricia
peter wrote:
I knew someone would post a message along these lines.
I knew there would be a reply from a woman who has met
nothing but abuse
from men all her life.
I guess I was very fortunate. I grew up in a family that
was full of
nothing but love and understanding. It was a family
straight out of Leave
It To Beaver. There was absolutel