Bonus question: In the eyes of U.S. Federal authorities who is likely
to be regarded as a better parent: 1. A hard-working, honest, and decent
couple who happen to engage in a Female Dominant relationship in the privacy
of their own home, or 2. A couple of absentee crack addicts. The answer
should be a no-brainer, but somehow, in the eyes of some people, the first
couple would be regarded as a more dangerous influence.

I know a lot of people are going to argue the point, but think about
this...it seems to me that in the second case, such behavior might very well
be ignored by authorities until it would become a newsworthy event that they
failed to act (a camera crew shows the kids living alone in filth, etc.), and
at that point they'd act decisively. In the second case, though, they'd
either do nothing about it, or their attitude would swing about 180 degrees,
and without any prompting from the media, they'd be calling press conferences
to show everyone how they'd saved some kids from the life of debauchery that
was being thrust upon them by their sick parents.

I know this whole post has a tendency to ramble on a bit, and I
apologise for that. I also know that my examples are extreme cases, but I
wanted to try and show the parallels between how some of our lifestyles might
be viewed by authorities, and how a truly irresponsible situation might be
viewed. I'd also like to apologise if anything I've said in this post
offends anyone, particularly Tracey who works for the Government of New
Zealand. My distrust of big government is something that I limit to the
U.S., Britain, and Canada, and so I don't mean to insult the governments of
other nations, or those persons who may work for them.

CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 07:46:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type (correction!)
Message-Id: <199607231446.HAA16933@netcom4.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 788


Coyote...Tracey is from New Zealand....a horse of a very different color
than Australia....
and hugs Coyote
Patricia

(Speaking of Down Under but definitely not Oz, where's Tracey?)

That's why I was so careful about the 'not Oz'- I've had
NZedders on my case bigtime for failing to observe the
distinction. Like lumping Canada with the US eh? ;9

Sooooo, other than somewhere in NZ, where's Tracey?
She said something about getting a new address,,,

Hugs back atcha hey ;]

c.s.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 03:53:32 -0400
From: Laura Goodwin
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: The Personal and the Collective
Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960723075332.00681890@popd.ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Lawless the pepper-picker wrote:

... When things, such as assholehood, cause harm to
others, then it shouldn't be overlooked or "appreciated" as diversity. Some
things need to be opposed.

But.... Opinions on evil vary. Some think BDSM is evil. Myself, I think
Budweiser is evil, ('eiser' being an ancient word for evil) as are Coors
and Miller Lite. Does this mean I can oppose all them what drink such
unholies, under the premise that they are what they eat/drink? ;-

Just don't oppose evil in a way that makes you cross the line and become
part of the problem. If, in opposing jerks you become a jerk yourself, then
what cause has been served? Could it be...SATAN!?
;)

Sooo....beat the drum in favor of your brew of choice, and tempt the
undecided with side-by-side taste-tests, but don't verbally or physically
attack the Bud truck guy, for example. :) (Unless he attacks you first...but
you knew that)


Laura Goodwin


"The heart has its reasons which reason doesn't know."
(Pascal)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 13:11:06 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Women and physical type
Message-ID:

EPatricia wrote:
FEMen have endured pain and danger for beauty too. Men have sought surgery,
FEtaken steroids, worn corsets, etc. Men have even had extreme procedures
FEforced on them, in the name of fashion, or to "prove manhood", etc. I hope
FEthe day is coming when such things will be purely elective, and the natural,
FEhuman body will be appreciated for the perfection it is.

I, personally, will not bed a man who is fat, bearded,
moustachioed, bald, poor, under-endowed, under-educated,
geographically challenged, poor, short, dumb, dirty,
unsuccessful, MARRIED, OLD or otherwise "imperfect."

Mmmmm, now where have I heard this before?
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #158
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------------------------------

Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 116

Today's Topics:
Re: meretool
Re: Remove from Newsgroup List
Holiday
meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Holiday
Re: Holiday
Re: Holiday
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: Capitalization.
Re: Holiday
brain function and gender
No morality, only a hard journey
Re: Holiday
Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Re: Capitalization
Re: Holiday

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 16:07:20 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool
Message-ID: <31CDCE28.187F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear mere:

I would say..pay attention, be yourself..and if you get really out of
line..someone will call you on it...DO your BEST, since you are mere
sub..you are bound to make mistakes .. but this is safe place for you to
grow in...
patricia

Ymeretool@aol.com wrote:

Thank You, Ma'am. i am learning. i really want to be a new man ... moulded
by a strong Woman. Everyday i say the SMC chant ... Women lead, the men
may follow, etc. As to rules for males on the list, Ma'am ... should i know
anything? Your boy, meretool

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 17:54:46 -0400
From: Rosevelyn@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Remove from Newsgroup List
Message-ID: <960623175444_337145542@emout16.mail.aol.com

Thank you for removing me from your list. The mail is overwhelming!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:48:09 +1200
From: Tracey
To: femsupremacy-digest@renaissoft.com (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: Holiday
Message-ID: <5903460924061996/A00775/DALEK/11A6C26E0100*@MHS
Content-Identifier: 11A6C26E0100


Happy Winter Solstice Tracey - it's wonderful to know that enlightment is
spanning the globe.

Jon

Thanks Jon. :^)

I have also been reading all your interesting posts on religion and some good
points have been brought up. My own opinion on religion is it's usually based
on greed and the true reason of religion, like the ten commandments, have been
lost. The original purpose of the bible was probably to instill basic law and
social order. And perhaps to answer the yet, unanswered questions, like, how
did we become.

Thanks to this list, I have been made more aware of the dominance of the male
gender. Remarks that I wouldn't had bothered with are getting on my nerves,
like; "the reason why she is successful is because she has a man's brain".
Grrrrr. And I watch loads of movies and it's not surprising when the damsel in
distress has to be saved by the knight in shining armour.... so, I put it to
you, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominate role. No,
not movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly stuff. Here, I'll start
the ball rolling...

The Quick and the Dead
The Piano
Tank Girl
Thelma & Louise

Tracey

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:25:57 -0400
From: Ymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-ID: <960623192556_562479007@emout08.mail.aol.com

To Ms. Patricia,

Thank You again, Ma'am. i am beginning to feel very comfortable
in this thoughtful Female Supremacist environment. i know i have
much to learn and i will take to heart everything my Betters have
to teach me. i will continue to consider You my Patroness if that
meets with Your approval, Ma'am. i am trying to get used to the
new way of thinking and it is probably better for me to ask questions
and to listen to the words of the Women on the list. i shouldn't
give opinions or try to top from the bottom. Women should lead
and i should follow. Women should speak and i should listen.
Women are X's and i am merely a defective X.

On thing confuses me, Ma'am. i know that some males have
slave contracts but the manual in Femsupremacy archives says
nothing about limits or rights of slaves. Assuming that i am to be
a slave, does a Mistress choose me or is there some kind of
contract. i am confused and i would like to know if serious
Female Supremacists have a firm policy on the subject. If a
Woman takes me as Her slave, do i always have to submit?
Sorry to be long-winded, Ma'am. meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 20:25:07 -0500
From: kriv@interlog.com (peter)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-Id:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Actually this begs some questions (and please don't think I'm being
sarcastic or downgrading someone else):
But, do most dominant women want a man who will put them on a pedestal, or
a snivelling wimp?
Should this man be confident and aggressive when in public and a snivelling
wimp in the woman's presence?
Or should the man be confident and self-assured at all times, even when he
is with the woman?
Peter

To Ms. Patricia,

Thank You again, Ma'am. i am beginning to feel very comfortable
in this thoughtful Female Supremacist environment. i know i have
much to learn and i will take to heart everything my Betters have
to teach me. i will continue to consider You my Patroness if that
meets with Your approval, Ma'am. i am trying to get used to the
new way of thinking and it is probably better for me to ask questions
and to listen to the words of the Women on the list. i shouldn't
give opinions or try to top from the bottom. Women should lead
and i should follow. Women should speak and i should listen.
Women are X's and i am merely a defective X.

On thing confuses me, Ma'am. i know that some males have
slave contracts but the manual in Femsupremacy archives says
nothing about limits or rights of slaves. Assuming that i am to be
a slave, does a Mistress choose me or is there some kind of
contract. i am confused and i would like to know if serious
Female Supremacists have a firm policy on the subject. If a
Woman takes me as Her slave, do i always have to submit?
Sorry to be long-winded, Ma'am. meretool



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:14:32 -0500
From: sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Holiday
Message-ID:

FEdistress has to be saved by the knight in shining armour.... so, I put it to
FEyou, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominate role.
FEnot movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly stuff. Here, I'll st
FEthe ball rolling...

FEThe Quick and the Dead
FEThe Piano
FETank Girl
FEThelma & Louise

^ ^ They were not in control. They were manipulated into
ending up the only way they "could," in the male perspective--dead--
Cop-out ending. I was always disappointed in that. They had to
pay anyway. I hated that.
CybErotiComm Online

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 21:40:21 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-ID: <31CE1C35.4B2D@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

yeah, but they made enough money to buy their own scripts and open their
own production companies and now we are seeing some really good stuff
about really strong women.
Patricia

sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

FEdistress has to be saved by the knight in shining armour.... so, I put it to
FEyou, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominate role.
FEnot movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly stuff. Here, I'll st
FEthe ball rolling...

FEThe Quick and the Dead
FEThe Piano
FETank Girl
FEThelma & Louise

^ ^ They were not in control. They were manipulated into
ending up the only way they "could," in the male perspective--dead--
Cop-out ending. I was always disappointed in that. They had to
pay anyway. I hated that.
CybErotiComm Online

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 19:04:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Barry Emerson Wright
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-ID:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Sun, 23 Jun 1996 sorceress@CYBEROTI.COM wrote:

FEThelma & Louise

^ ^ They were not in control. They were manipulated into
ending up the only way they "could," in the male perspective--dead--
Cop-out ending. I was always disappointed in that. They had to
pay anyway. I hated that.

I agree, but the ending struck a very deep chord within me---it
seemed to be an extension of the best of the Greek tragedies. They
went down in flames but they went together, and the handholding is
something I will never forget.
There will always be room in literature (and movies) for
tragedies. My feeling is that they should serve as vehicles for motivation
instead of resignation.

Peace,

Barry


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:41:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-Id: <199606240241.WAA20278@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:25 PM 6/23/96 -0400, Ymeretool wrote:
To Ms. Patricia,

Thank You again, Ma'am. i am beginning to feel very comfortable
in this thoughtful Female Supremacist environment. i know i have
much to learn and i will take to heart everything my Betters have
to teach me. i will continue to consider You my Patroness if that
meets with Your approval, Ma'am. i am trying to get used to the
new way of thinking and it is probably better for me to ask questions
and to listen to the words of the Women on the list. i shouldn't
give opinions or try to top from the bottom. Women should lead
and i should follow. Women should speak and i should listen.
Women are X's and i am merely a defective X.

Welcome to the group Ymeretool.

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I'll toss my 2 cents in for what
it's worth. *donning flame-proof undies*

Why are you putting yourself down so for simply being born a male? I agree
that women are to be honored and adored and that they possess many superior
qualities (empathy, healing, inner strength, etc), but I like to think we
males bring something to the table also. Without us, women can not be
superior ;)

I feel we should all endeavor to be the best we can be in order to serve Her
better. We should treat ourselves (and others) with respect and care, and
strive to make ourselves more useful, appealing and interesting to Her. That
takes effort and self esteem. We're not defective, just gender-challenged.

I would think a women would more appreciate a capable, intelligent, and sharing
man rather than a "doormat" mindlessly kneeling and groveling. But I may
be wrong. ;) Paul (aka maidpaula)

p.s. By the way Ymeretool, you are very correct...don't try to top from
the bottom.



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:56:26 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-ID: <31CE2E0A.14EB@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I second the notion and motion that...subs be capable, intelligent and
sharing....
Patricia


pgm@servtech.com wrote:

At 07:25 PM 6/23/96 -0400, Ymeretool wrote:
To Ms. Patricia,

Thank You again, Ma'am. i am beginning to feel very comfortable
in this thoughtful Female Supremacist environment. i know i have
much to learn and i will take to heart everything my Betters have
to teach me. i will continue to consider You my Patroness if that
meets with Your approval, Ma'am. i am trying to get used to the
new way of thinking and it is probably better for me to ask questions
and to listen to the words of the Women on the list. i shouldn't
give opinions or try to top from the bottom. Women should lead
and i should follow. Women should speak and i should listen.
Women are X's and i am merely a defective X.

Welcome to the group Ymeretool.

I know this wasn't addressed to me but I'll toss my 2 cents in for what
it's worth. *donning flame-proof undies*

Why are you putting yourself down so for simply being born a male? I agree
that women are to be honored and adored and that they possess many superior
qualities (empathy, healing, inner strength, etc), but I like to think we
males bring something to the table also. Without us, women can not be
superior ;)

I feel we should all endeavor to be the best we can be in order to serve Her
better. We should treat ourselves (and others) with respect and care, and
strive to make ourselves more useful, appealing and interesting to Her. That
takes effort and self esteem. We're not defective, just gender-challenged.

I would think a women would more appreciate a capable, intelligent, and sharing
man rather than a "doormat" mindlessly kneeling and groveling. But I may
be wrong. ;) Paul (aka maidpaula)

p.s. By the way Ymeretool, you are very correct...don't try to top from
the bottom.

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 23:03:57 -0400
From: willow
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-ID: <31CE059D.3096EE5@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ms Noble is indulgent and kind :)

*bow*
willow


Noble wrote:

I second the notion and motion that...subs be capable, intelligent and
sharing....
Patricia


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:50:35 +0200
From: jcalvo
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Capitalization.
Message-Id: <199606240603.HAA27648@jet.es
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Perhap you have a problem with your kerboar?

At 13:44 23/06/96 -0500, you wrote:
Patricia:
Does this mean that should i ever write to You, that i should use the lower
case when referring to me?
peter


it only makes me go GRRR when I have told someone to write that way...in
general bad grammar makes me go GRRRR...
(@) (@)
c
\_____/

Patricia

peter wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly.
And what type of relationship are we talking about in the D/S mode?
It may be the traditional leather-clad dominatrix relationship or one in
which the woman enjoys having a man put her on a pedestal and have his
world revolve around her.
Shouldn't this be something that is discussed beforehand by two people?
Peter


I managed to delete Chase's letter before I decided to comment. Stupid!

Anyway, it seems to me that you've overlooked a detail in your letter.
This is a female supremacy mailing list. Your letter seemed to exclusively
deal with female dominance. What you or anyone else choose to do about that
distinction is for the person in question to decideof course.

You'll notice that I personally try to abide by English grammar as
best as
I can, even if it makes Patricia GRR in front of her screen :).

---



___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".


a x e l

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 20:44:36 +1000 (EST)
From: mike Lee
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-Id: <199606241044.UAA19332@oznet02.ozemail.com.au
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tracey said:
so, I put it to
you, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominate role. No,
not movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly stuff. Here, I'll start
the ball rolling...

The Quick and the Dead
The Piano
Tank Girl
Thelma & Louise

It's interesting to note that The Piano is a South Australian production, by
a fine Australian Director by the name of Jane Campion, who I might add, we
will hear a lot more from.
But to pick up from this thread:

Maitresse
Exit to Eden (featuring another Ozzie, Paul Mercurio, as a sub)

Michael from down under


___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".




the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 03:06:01 -0700
From: Brett J Wakefield
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: brain function and gender
Message-ID: <31CE6889.4329@slip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As a forward, I apologize for not having more details Re: the following,
but I was making breakfast for The Woman when this was broadcast on a CNN
science report.

A scientist did some research using SAT math problems with male and
female subjects, followed by CAT scans which indicated that male brains
activity occurred in those portions of the brain shared with other
simians;i.e., males used same parts of brain as chimpanzees to solve
problems; while females brain activity occurred in areas of the brain
involving higher limbic function that were exclusively human and did not
exist in other species.

Since I'm not a neurologist, I don't hesitate to suggest that this is
further proof that women are more evolved than males.

Brett

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:26:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: No morality, only a hard journey
Message-Id: <199606241226.FAA03118@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1559

Tracey wrote:

And perhaps to answer the yet, unanswered questions, like, how
did we become.

,,,Or the really big questions:
Who am I? Who are we?

And no religion will impart this if we simply sit there and
passively wait for it to tell us. A religion is only a map,
an invitation to a journey, and perhaps the account of some of
those who have already made the journey, usually in the form of
myths and allegories, and a lot of mystery. (Mystery helps us
frame good questions, just as myths help us grasp the context.)

I have a map here. I cannot sit here and wait for the map to
get me to California.

Tracey is right: No religion successfully teaches morality (even
if it purports to). To expect that is to miss the point.

But learning who we are (by following a path to that knowledge)
frees us to be moral beings. Morality is only a by-product of
a healthy identity, of knowing who I am and who the Other is, and
being comfortable with that knowledge.

And religion, any religion, means both risk and damned hard
work. There is no Father Christmas, Virginia.

Peace ;]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 05:42:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-Id: <199606241242.FAA04042@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1229

Tracey put it to us:

Grrrrr. And I watch loads of movies and it's not surprising when the damsel
in distress has to be saved by the knight in shining armour.... so, I put
it to you, how many films have you seen where the woman is in the dominant
role. No, not movies like For the Boys, or other so-called girly
stuff. Here, I'll start the ball rolling...

The Quick and the Dead
The Piano
Tank Girl
Thelma & Louise

How 'bout

The African Queen
Driving Miss Daisy
The Colour Purple
Fried Green Tomatoes
Baghdad Cafe
Basic Instinct and
that movie about sexual harrassment with Demi Moore and Michael
Douglas.

(In all of these the woman/women set the direction, define the
story line and the other characters, and generally decide who wins
and who loses. My own life is a never-ending replay of The African
Queen morphed into Baghdad Cafe ;d )

(In 'Purple' and 'Tomatoes,' there are no significant men at all.)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:15:12 -0400
From: Ymeretool@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: meretool thanks Ms. Patricia and asks a question
Message-ID: <960624091510_337694830@emout08.mail.aol.com

males do not have to be wimps ... that is true. Men may hunt and
build (the SMC chant says) and hunters and builders must be strong
and resourceful. The bottom line though (no pun intended) is that
males must never forget that Women must lead and rule them. And
there should be outward signs of male acceptance of their subordinate
status. Lower case i ... calling all Women 'Ma'am', etc. The mentality
of the new male must be reinforced. Just my opinion. meretool

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 06:20:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: amfas@netcom.com (Coyote Sings)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Capitalization
Message-Id: <199606241320.GAA06828@netcom8.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 1461

Laura Goodwin (writing about 'Capitalization') gave some beautiful
examples of modern English usage in Goddess worship, discussed its merits,
and ended with

I don't imagine this will catch on though...who needs more rules of
grammar? Most people can't keep up with the ones we've got. :)

Probably not, but it's important to make the effort to have a 'special
language' for very special purposes. In the examples Laura gave, what
she's doing is marking off sacred space for sacred purposes. It says,
'here we do this, and do our best, and nothing else intrudes.'

In the same way we use language to set off other special events in our lives,
whether we're in court fighting a traffic ticket or are playing tennis,
or are making love. Even 'baby talk' is part of this.

The trick is to set the =events= off for their special purpose but not shut
out the people. 'Good' liturgy, like any good theater, both sticks to the
story and invites people in to share it.

Laura's examples do just that. :]
--
coyote sings / man and sky / amfas@netcom.com

Show up. Lighten up. Pay attention. Feel awe. Make it count.
The rest is hidden.

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 09:37:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dan Glover
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Cc: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Holiday
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Excellent concepts.
As my Mom used to say "your Father is the Head of the house; but I am the
neck and I can turn the head any way I choose".

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
End of femsupremacy-digest Digest V96 Issue #116
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Content-Type: text/plain

femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 109

Today's Topics:
Re: confused
Re: confused
Re: confused
Re: confused
Re: Manual
Re: http://www.domina.fr/
Re: Changing Attitudes
Re: Changing Attitudes
Re: Changing Attitudes
Word Macro Virus
Re: From a.w.s.: More Web Sites for Women
Re: From a.w.s.: More Web Sites for Women
Reversed roles.
Re: Changing Attitudes
Re: confused
BDSM Emblem

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:02:15 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-ID: <31C219A7.4D8F@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

yes, indeed this is heavy stuff and I did not answer earlier because I
do not wish to criticize any Domme, when I do not know all the
facts....but

I always have periods of discussion where my sub and I can speak freely
and give feedback about what has been occuring between us recently. I
do not think it is a good idea (or very nice) to keep sub in position
where he does not know who has final word over his behavior. I don't
think the point is to keep sub constantly insecure...it is hard enough
to train them...about who they belong too.

Personally..(and I know others do differently and this is no judgement)
I would not loan my sub out if I were not there. If the point is to
have someone else train them...say I were new DOMME..the point would be
for me to be there and learn. This is kind of charged and I do not want
to criticize another DOMME. I can only say for myself...I love my
pet..I have told him that he does not have to worry about anything
anymore .. except pleasing me... a DOMME takes on a big responsibility
when she takes a sub for her own. If his job is to keep centered on me
and my pleasure...my job is to keep his world as safe and as empty of
any distractions from that task as I can. That's how I see it. It's
not easy being DOMME...but what would you poor babies do without us.

I demand my subs speak of their feelings on things as they move along.
At the end of a new scene, at the end of a particularly tough training
day...when wills have been tested and mine always wins....i make sure
there is time for check ins to makes sure that lessons have been learned
and my pet is still wanting to nothing else in the world but please me.
this is not fascism you know!
Patricia


Jon Woolven wrote:

Original message:

To the Matriarchs, the petition of slave 49442 humbly sheweth that it (that is
what my current Mistress calls me) is confused. i was disrespectful to my
original Mistress and She released me to another Mistress for intensive
obedience training. my original Mistress said that my servitude to my new
Mistress had to be by mutual consent but my current Mistress seems to believe
that i have no rights or limits. Also, my original Mistress told me that She
could take me back some day but my current Mistress wants me to be Her property
forever. my original Mistress is kind to me and She has told me to come to Her
for advice. i am confused about who really owns me. slave 49442

Phew, heavy stuff.
Advice from a fellow submissive:

- Do you have any vestige of self will at all?
If so, make your own decisions whilst being honest and
respectful to both parties.

- If your will has been completely crushed
Obey the Mistress which has the greater control
of your mind.

-If you care for my advice:
Female supremacy is not about selfish, stormtroopers
trampling all before them. This is a great fantasy
(and mine are pretty mindblowing) but not such a
good reality.

Observe the behaviour of the lady contributors to this forum.
They are magnificently superior, intelligent and witty but also
civilised and considerate. Is this not a better model for the future
than a direct replacement of male brutality with a female version?

You may find that Mistress Two is just staying in role, sensing your
own extreme submissiveness. Try to address her outside of this
role for a moment and the dilemma may disappear. If not, plead for
renewed service with Mistress one, she sounds better balanced
to me.

Keep things in proportion. Enjoy yourself sexually but let it
overwhelm you. Work for a better world.

Jon

___________________________________________________________________ Questions
and comments should be sent to listmasterenaissoft.com. For a list and
description of supported mailing list commands, send mail to
femsupremacy-requestenaissoft.com with the subject "help".

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

--
MZê

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:59:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-Id: <199606142359.TAA16247@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 07:02 PM 6/14/96 -0700, you wrote:

a DOMME takes on a big responsibility
when she takes a sub for her own. If his job is to keep centered on me
and my pleasure...my job is to keep his world as safe and as empty of
any distractions from that task as I can. That's how I see it.

Yes, it is a big responsibility and one not to be taken lightly. The
Domme and the sub should endeavor to communicate honestly and define their
roles and limits and responsibilities (emotional, physical, and spiritual)
in order to prevent the quandry slave 49442 finds himself in. Sometimes
the Domme is not capable or not caring enough (for what ever reason) and
a sub can find him/herself crushed and confused. Not a good space to be in.

It's not easy being DOMME...but what would you poor babies do without us.

I appreciate the effort, thought and time that goes into being a "good"
Domme. Without the Domme's efforts, submission itself would be impossible ;)

I demand my subs speak of their feelings on things as they move along.
At the end of a new scene, at the end of a particularly tough training
day...when wills have been tested and mine always wins....i make sure
there is time for check ins to makes sure that lessons have been learned
and my pet is still wanting to nothing else in the world but please me.
this is not fascism you know!
Patricia

I'm glad to hear you say that. I view the scene as consensual with mutual
pleasure for both, and ongoing communication and feedback ensures that pleasure
and fulfillment are attained. I like the idea of two souls uniting and forming
a glorious bond that takes both higher than each could attain on their own.

Just a thought, Paul (or mp or paula or maid or...)



the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:06:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: pgm@servtech.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-Id: <199606150006.UAA16556@cyber2.servtech.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 06:33 PM 6/14/96 EDT, you wrote:
-If you care for my advice:
Female supremacy is not about selfish, stormtroopers
trampling all before them. This is a great fantasy
(and mine are pretty mindblowing) but not such a
good reality.

Observe the behaviour of the lady contributors to this forum.
They are magnificently superior, intelligent and witty but also
civilised and considerate. Is this not a better model for the future
than a direct replacement of male brutality with a female version?

Jon- I can only "second" your advice...very well stated. There has been, and
still is, far too much brutality in the world. Hopefully, as women gain more
power and influence in our society and culture, they will show all of us a
better way of viewing and relating to each other and the world in general.

another subbie and female admirer, Paul

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 06:24:44 -0700
From: lalaura@ix.netcom.com (Laura Goodwin)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-Id: <199606151324.GAA11805@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com

slave 49442 wrote:


i was disrespectful to my original Mistress and She released me to
another Mistress for intensive obedience training.

Then the second mistress is your original Mistress's agent and deputy.

my original Mistress said that my servitude to my new Mistress had to
be by mutual consent but my current Mistress seems to believe that i
have no rights or limits. Also, my original Mistress told me that She
could take me back some day but my current Mistress wants me to be Her
property forever.

It sounds like the deputy mistress is not only derelic in her duty, but
is betraying your mistress's trust by trying to take you on
permanantly, when this was not a permanant arrangement. The agreement
is not being adhered to, so of course you are confused.

my original Mistress is kind to me and She has told me to come
to Her for advice. i am confused about who really owns me.

Return to your original Mistress and tell her everything. Refuse to
continue with this second mistress unless the difficulties are worked
out.


--
Laura Goodwin


"Who is she who appears like the dawn
Fair as the moon, bright as the sun,
Terrifying as an army with banners?"

(Song of Solomon, 6:10)

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 15:07:42 -0400
From: tiresius@magnet.ca (Tiresius)
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Manual
Message-Id: <9606151907.AA13945@python.magnet.ca
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Tiresius- I couldn't agree more. I would never be so presumptuous as to
believe that I would know how to serve and please a woman better than the
woman herself. She is the only one who fully and truly knows what she
desires and seeks (if she's in touch with her supremacy, but that's


In short, I believe such manuals are appropriate feedback, just
incorrectly titled.


There has been many excellent replies to my original posting, which
was my sole intent. I did not intend to criticize the author of the
available "training manual," and over all thought it is well written. I
posted my original post, in that I thought it interesting that there were no
similar manual(s) written by women.

While I doubt many people would take any "training manual" and use
it as their "bible," I do believe there IS a role for such manuals. In
fact, I can see several.

Writing such a manual, I believe is a good exercise.
An Authouress might find it an excellent means to clarify her
objectives, and means to arrive at her goals. While an author, can offer
insights of himself that might be fruitfully persued.

While I doubt no two people would appraoch the subject exactly like
another, reading such manuals gives insights to the approaches that others
have taken, and what has and has not worked by others.

However, without "commentary," this fruitful discussion might be
missed. So far, there has been some "fruitful commentary," and if there is
an "interest," this might continue.

Ideally, most of us would write "our own" "training manual" and
offer it here for discussion and commentary. However, I do realize the
momentous undertaking that this implies, and I doubt few of us have the time.

Hopefully, some might be "inspired" to write, and I am certain it
would be a benefit to us all.

Best wishes,
Tiresius
Tiresius@Magnet.ca

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 17:30:08 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: http://www.domina.fr/
Message-Id: <199606151528.RAA12247@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:59:40 -0700, lanoline wrote:

Please find herewith the URL of the Demonia magazine.


http://www.domina.fr/

I chose the English version, but I still got the French. Seems to be a
defunct server.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:38:28 -0700
From: Jet
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Changing Attitudes
Message-ID: <31C31134.7E50@nwlink.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jon--

My place of work is about 65% female / 35% male
which some of you will doubtless envy. We recruit
frequently and I'm often involved in the decision.
My boss is female and she's a very potent mixture
of tough and tender.

Why don't you give her the address for the femsupremacy
mailing list?

She would like to see a 50/50 split, which see thinks
gives the optimal working environment and mix of talents.
She is therefore happy when we employ a new man.

Perhaps, she could be convinced that as
all-woman company may actually be more interesting and
profitable. ;)

However, and this is the crux, both my boss and I
always select the best person for the job, whoever it may
be. I don't try to push the claims of a woman, if I don't
believe she's the best candidate. Even men need to earn a
living after all.

As you work for someone who appears to be powerful in her
own right, perhaps you are already doing things in the way
you should be.

Consider your options? Are you going to continue to work for
her? Could you start your own company doing the same thing
your female boss is doing (being her competitor) and hire in
a way that makes you most comfortable? Could you somehow
convince her that she should not worry about the 50/50 mix,
but just consider hiring the best candidates, and that if those
candidates happen to be women, just to go with them women...?

Jon, I think it is interesting and would like to know more
about what happens here.

Jet

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: 15 Jun 96 18:07:21 EDT
From: Jon Woolven <100410.1764@CompuServe.COM
To: "INTERNET:femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Changing Attitudes
Message-ID: <960615220721_100410.1764_BHG60-1@CompuServe.COM

Thanks for your thought provoking reply Jet. I'll do my best to respond.

My first message--
My place of work is about 65% female / 35% male which some of you will
doubtless envy. We recruit frequently and I'm often involved in the decision.
My boss is female and she's a very potent mixture of tough and tender.

Jet's reply--
Why don't you give her the address for the femsupremacy mailing list?

My response--
It's a lovely thought. She's very powerful and dominates both our organisation
and
her boyfriend in a very feminine way. Her determination and strength of will is

incredible. I have a convenient excuse though. She doesn't have access to the
Net
yet.


My original message--
She would like to see a 50/50 split, which see thinks gives the optimal
working environment and mix of talents. She is therefore happy when we employ
a new man.

Jet's reply--
Perhaps, she could be convinced that an all-woman company may actually be more
interesting and profitable. ;)

My response--
Except for a few male underlings to do the dirty work perhaps?


My first comment--
However, and this is the crux, both my boss and I always select the best
person for the job, whoever it may be. I don't try to push the claims of a
woman, if I don't believe she's the best candidate. Even men need to earn a
living after all.

Jet's response--
As you work for someone who appears to be powerful in her own right, perhaps you
are already doing things in the way you should be.

My reply--
Most of all I enjoy boosting the confidence of the young women in the team. To
help them
grow, prosper and feel more powerful is the most incredibly rewarding
experience.

Jet's comment--
Consider your options? Are you going to continue to work for her? Could you
start your own company doing the same thing your female boss is doing (being her
competitor) and hire in a way that makes you most comfortable? Could you
somehow convince her that she should not worry about the 50/50 mix, but just
consider hiring the best candidates, and that if those
candidates happen to be women, just to go with them women...?

My reply--
I'm very fulfilled where I am and don't want to move. We're building our
organisation
into something pretty amazing and I wish I could elaborate more.
My boss knows my feelings about recruitment. She's an expert on reading body
language
and I can't hide much from her. We both agree we should always hire the best
candidate.
It's only a matter of how we react about the gender of the successful person.

Please don't think she's anti-female in any way, quite the opposite, but she
prefers a
gender mix in the workplace.

I suppose the big variable is how we decide on the best candidate. What biases
and preconceptions do we bring to bear? In my case, a woman has a head start
because I am in awe of female wisdom.

I hope my answers are helpful

Jon



___________________________________________________________________ Questions
and comments should be sent to listmasterenaissoft.com. For a list and
description of supported mailing list commands, send mail to
femsupremacy-requestenaissoft.com with the subject "help".

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 00:19:35 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "femsupremacy@renaissoft.com"
Subject: Re: Changing Attitudes
Message-Id: <199606152219.AAA15967@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 15 Jun 96 18:07:21 EDT, Jon Woolven wrote:

Jet's reply--
Why don't you give her the address for the femsupremacy mailing list?

My response--
It's a lovely thought. She's very powerful and dominates both our organisation
and
her boyfriend in a very feminine way. Her determination and strength of will is

incredible. I have a convenient excuse though. She doesn't have access to the
Net
yet.

Does she have a computer in her home? Then getting internet access to gain
access to this list seems to me to be as good a reason as any :).

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 00:18:19 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Word Macro Virus
Message-Id: <199606160013.AAA11778@mail.telepac.pt
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

The Microsoft version of the Word Macro killer can be found at:

http://www.microsoft.com/kb/softlib/mslfiles/wd1215.exe

Regards, David.
Christine & David Stevenson,
Authors of the Fem Dom Training Program.
Runs on all IBM compatible PC's.
Advises on how best to train your husband/lover.
Email enquiries:- cstevenson@mail.telepac.pt

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 11:07:11 +0200
From: Bernd
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: From a.w.s.: More Web Sites for Women
Message-Id: <199606160907.LAA03687@croco.atnet.at
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Found on alt.women.supremacy:

From: peechi@bitteford.com (peechi)
Newsgroups: alt.women.supremacy
Subject: Web sites for Women
Date: 6 Jun 1996 12:53:15 GMT

Here are some more websites designed especailly for Women.

http://www.ion.com.au/yoni/yonititle.html (my favorite)

Thank you for the urls.This one really is a great collection of very
informative pages about all aspects of womankind.
Divinity! :)

There is so much I dont know about women and their hidden secrets of life.
I enjoyed surfing, reading and wondering in this pages.

It is a sunny beautiful day and i just wanted to say how wonderfullllll
you women are.

Thanks for listening.


Bernd

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 09:49:27 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: From a.w.s.: More Web Sites for Women
Message-ID: <31C43B17.2EB4@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

WE are WONDER-FULL aren't we
Patricia

Bernd wrote:

Found on alt.women.supremacy:

From: peechi@bitteford.com (peechi)
Newsgroups: alt.women.supremacy
Subject: Web sites for Women
Date: 6 Jun 1996 12:53:15 GMT

Here are some more websites designed especailly for Women.

http://www.ion.com.au/yoni/yonititle.html (my favorite)

Thank you for the urls.This one really is a great collection of very
informative pages about all aspects of womankind.
Divinity! :)

There is so much I dont know about women and their hidden secrets of life.
I enjoyed surfing, reading and wondering in this pages.

It is a sunny beautiful day and i just wanted to say how wonderfullllll
you women are.

Thanks for listening.


Bernd

___________________________________________________________________
Questions and comments should be sent to listmaster@renaissoft.com.
For a list and description of supported mailing list commands, send
mail to femsupremacy-request@renaissoft.com with the subject "help".

--
MZê

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 06:22:38 +0200
From: "Magnus Thelander"
To: "Fem. suprem."
Subject: Reversed roles.
Message-Id: <199606170422.GAA03238@mailbox.swip.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I just saw a short feature in the morning news about a Swedish man (Tore
Gustafson) married to an American woman (Lisa). They're living in Felton, CA.
Lisa works as a prosecutor, while Tore is a house-husband, taking care of the
house, garden, household and children.

---
Magnus Thelander
Malmo, Sweden
"Fuck off, Uncle Sam. Cyberspace is where democracy lives."
---Todd Lappin


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 02:58:40 -0400
From: RicRalph@aol.com
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: Changing Attitudes
Message-ID: <960617025839_136484940@emout13.mail.aol.com

Patricia wrote:
The idea that women, african americans and others..are, or have geen given
jobs they are not qualified for because of their gender or race is insulting.

I sure agree, Patricia. I started a transportation company as an insurance
policy for me and folks like me back in 1972... Got out of the war (served in
England, Turkey, Korea and Viet Nam)-- was angry and said screw the world...
For the first five years or so we were ex GI's on a mission... probably to
regain a sense of our self esteem. The war and GI's wern't very popular
then.

Many of the GI's healed and went on. Some of us are still here. Over the
years our company has evolved into an organization that tries to create
oppertunities for good people to be whatever they can or want to be. There
are about 1300 of us now led by five women and four men (including myself).
The fact is we beat the pants off of all of our competition-- because we are
the best! And we're the best because we represent the best talent our
society has to offer.

We all work, love and play hard-- because we want to-- and because we like
what we do. Folks in our industry say we are an anomaly. Perhaps. We don't
care. Yet we are proud to be leaders of the "Changing Attitudes" in our part
of the world. Our God/Goddess created all of us equal, so here we are. The
choices we all have to make is how to be equal with each other everyday...

And for all the things that are important to me, Womanhood is the superior
gender...

Regards, Ralph

PS Happy Birthday, Patricia (a few days late).
I turned 51 back in November. Welcome to the club. This really is a great
time of life!

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 12:55:08 -0500
From: Peter Sage
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: confused
Message-ID: <31C59BFC.2A9A@ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jon Woolven wrote:

Original message:

To the Matriarchs, the petition of slave 49442 humbly sheweth that it (that is
what my current Mistress calls me) is confused. i was disrespectful to my
original Mistress and She released me to another Mistress for intensive
obedience training. my original Mistress said that my servitude to my new
Mistress had to be by mutual consent but my current Mistress seems to believe
that i have no rights or limits. Also, my original Mistress told me that She
could take me back some day but my current Mistress wants me to be Her property
forever. my original Mistress is kind to me and She has told me to come to Her
for advice. i am confused about who really owns me. slave 49442

i realize this is a very "charged" topic, but i feel i should jump in
and offer my two cents. BTW, my name is peter, and i have been lurking
for about two months. i'm pretty new to BDSM, and subscribing to this
mailing list has been educational.

FWIW, i can't help but think that Mistress Two may be playing a "mind
game" with slave 49442 as part of his obedience training; Army Drill
Sergeants do something very similar to trainees in Basic Training.
At any rate, it doesn't sound consentual, and consent is one of the
cornerstones of the BDSM community (but not of the Army).

Just MHO, respectfully submitted ;)

peter

the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:06:26 -0500
From: Peter Sage
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: BDSM Emblem
Message-ID: <31C59EA2.1628@ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

There is a web page (http://www.wizvax.net/multics/dspin.html) that
has some info about what it calls the "BDSM emblem." I have been told
by a local jeweler (of all people) that it's also called the "chaos
wheel," and I have seen a design very similar to it in the departmental
"seal" of the NC Division of Highways! (Is it any coincidence our
highways are always under construction?) Does anyone else have any
additional info about this emblem?

the subject "help".

--------------------------------
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femsupremacy-digest Digest Volume 96 : Issue 176

Today's Topics:
RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress
Re: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress
Monogomy

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 19:36:58 +0100
From: "Christine & David Stevenson"
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
CC: "SubMiss"
Subject: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress
Message-Id: <199608021936.TAA28844@mail.telepac.pt
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------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:23:08 -0800
To: telstar@wired.com
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin--)
Subject: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress


Free speech isn't only for those with dangerous ideas; privacy isn't just
for suspected criminals.

As Internet users, we all have a stake in standing up for free speech *and*
privacy.

With your indulgence, I'm passing along an important alert regarding
several telecommunications surveillance proposals that Congress may
adopt... perhaps as soon as FRIDAY.

If you can, please call Congress on Friday to insist that our legislators
carefully consider the privacy implivations of any proposal to expland the
FBI's wiretap authority. Your call can make a very big difference.

Full details follow below.

Work the network!

--Todd Lappin--
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine


======================================================================
____ _____ ____ ___ _ _____ ____ _____
| _ \| ____| _ \ / _ \| | | ____| _ \_ _| CONGRESS RUSHING TO
| |_) | _| | | | | | |_| | | | _| | |_) || | ENACT SURVEILLANCE
| _ <| |___| |_| | | _ | |___| |___| _ < | | LEGISLATION. CALL
|_| \_\_____|____/ |_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| CONGRESS NOW! 8/1/96

REPOST THIS ALERT WHERE APPROPRIATE
DO NOT REDISTRIBUTE AFTER AUGUST 7, 1996
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Table of contents
Introduction
What you can do now
Background
Participating organizations
----------------------------------------------------------------------
INTRODUCTION

Late Wednesday, Congress and the Clinton Administration reached a
preliminary agreement on a sweeping new surveillance initiative. The
President and several Congressional leaders are pushing for a vote on the
measure BEFORE CONGRESS RECESSES ON AUGUST 2.

If enacted, parts of the proposal would dramatically impact privacy and
security on the Internet and other advanced communications technologies.

Of particular concern are provisions which:

1. Allow law enforcement to wiretap "suspected terrorists" for up to
48 hours WITHOUT obtaining a court order.

2. Provide funding for the Digital Telephony Proposal without any public
accountability over how the FBI spends the funds

Other provisions are also circulating that would:

3. Impose new restrictions on encryption technologies

4. Criminalize the distribution of 'bomb-making' information on
the Internet that is legal in print.

Congress needs to hear from you. Congress will rush through the passage
of massive new surveillance plans with privacy risks unless you
show them there is support for slow, deliberate, reasoned thought on
the issue.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW

CALL YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS IMMEDIATELY
NO LATER THAN FRIDAY (8/2/96)

Please contact as many elected officials on the list below as you can.
Urge them to "go slow" and carefully consider the impact these
surveillance proposals will have on the privacy and security of
Internet users.

Tell them while you appreciate their concern about combating terrorism,
the measures being proposed have many potential side effects which must be
carefully considered.

If you are at a loss for words, use the following sample communique:

SAMPLE COMMUNIQUE

Dear _________,

Please do not rush the passage of counter terrorism legislation;
I'm concerned that Congress is rushing without carefully
considering the implications of privacy. I'm from

Thanks,
You should call the following members of Congress because they
are steering this legislation and need to know there is support
for slow, deliberate, thoughtful consideration of this issue.
Some of thee members *have publicly expressed reservations* about this
legislation, and we should support them in their efforts.

Senate members:

P ST Name and Address Phone Fax
= == ======================== ============== ==============
R MS Lott, Trent 1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262
D DE Biden Jr., Joseph R. 1-202-224-5042 1-202-224-0139
D SD Daschle, Thomas A. 1-202-224-2321 1-202-224-2047
R UT Hatch, Orrin G. 1-202-224-5251 1-202-224-6331
R PA Specter, Arlen 1-202-224-4254 1-717-782-4920
D VT Leahy, Patrick J. 1-202-224-4242 1-202-224-3595

House members:

Dist ST Name, Address, and Party Phone Fax
==== == ======================== ============== ==============
6 GA Gingrich, Newt (R) 1-202-225-4501 1-202-225-4656
3 MO Gephardt, Richard A. (D) 1-202-225-2671 1-202-225-7452
6 IL Hyde, Henry J. (R) 1-202-225-4561 1-202-226-1240
14 MI Conyers Jr., John (D) 1-202-225-5126 1-202-225-0072

President William Clinton:
White House Comment Line: 1-202-456-1414

3. If you get a response, take a moment and send mail to vtw@vtw.org
with "feedback" in the subject line.

$ Mail vtw@vtw.org
Subject: my feedback from calling Congress
They said they're not going to pass most of Clinton's package,
because it upsets the delicate balance between law enforcement and
the public.
^D
Mail sent!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
BACKGROUND

Among other things, the law enforcement proposals circulating on Capitol
Hill include provisions which:

o WIRETAPPING WITHOUT COURT ORDER ALLOWED FOR 48 HOURS

Congress and the President have already agreed to provisions which
would dramatically expand law enforcement surveillance authority. Both
of these provisions were proposed by the President as part of the 1995
counter-terrorism legislation, but were dropped from the final bill
after Republicans and civil liberties advocates objected.

The current proposal would expand law enforcement surveillance
authority in two ways:

- Emergency 48 Hour Wiretap Authority: Current law requires law
enforcement officials to get the affirmative consent of a judge
before installing a wiretap.

The current proposal would expand law enforcement authority to
wiretap "suspected terrorists" for up to 48 hours before obtaining a
court order, limiting a critical 4th amendment safeguard.

- Multi-Point "Roving" Wiretaps: Current law allows law enforcement to
tap only specific LOCATIONS (i.e., a telephone number). In certain
very limited circumstances, law enforcement can tap a specific
INDIVIDUAL if it can be shown to a judge that the suspect is moving
from place to place with the specific intent of thwarting law
enforcement.

The current proposal would expand this so-called "roving" wiretap
authority by making it much easier for law enforcement to tap specific
INDIVIDUALS as opposed to specific physical locations. This change
would dramatically effect the balance between 4th Amendment privacy
rights and public safety which has existed for nearly 30 years, and
should not be enacted without careful consideration of the
implications.

o FUNDING FOR DIGITAL TELEPHONY WITHOUT PUBLIC ACCOUNTABILITY

The Administration and Congress are seeking funding to implement the
Digital Telephony Law in a way which eliminates any opportunity for
public oversight of law enforcement surveillance ability.

The controversial law, known officially as the Communications
Assistance for Law Enforcement Act (CALEA), granted the FBI new
authority to influence the design of telecommunications networks. At
the same time, the law provided substantial public oversight over the
FBI's surveillance ability by requiring the FBI to state, on the
public record, what its surveillance needs are.

The FBI has faced stiff resistance from civil liberties groups and some
members of Congress and has not yet been able to obtain funding to
implement the requirements of the law.

As part of the current proposal, the FBI is seeking a mechanism which
will provide funding for CALEA in a way which skirts the public
oversight provisions of the law. This is an extremely troubling move
by law enforcement which, if enacted, would allow law enforcement
essentially unlimited authority to influence the design of
telecommunications networks without any accountability.

Other provisions which could show up in legislation in the next 72 hours are:

o BOMB MAKING MATERIAL ON THE INTERNET

In the wake of the recent public concern about terrorism, Senators
Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) and Joseph Biden (D-DE) have renewed their
efforts to pass legislation to restrict the availability of 'bomb-
making' information on the Internet.

The Feinstein/Biden amendment was added to the Senate Defense
Appropriations bill (S. 1762) in early July, and is not currently part
of the new law enforcement initiative. However, the amendment poses a
serious threat to chill the the free flow of information on the
Internet.

o NEW RESTRICTIONS ON ENCRYPTION TECHNOLOGIES:

While no specific legislation has been proposed, the Clinton
Administration has circulated an outline to Congress which states:

"We will seek legislation to strengthen our ability to
prevent terrorists from coming into the possession of the technology
to encrypt their communications and data so that they are beyond the
reach of law enforcement."

This statement marks the first time that the Administration has
suggested legislation to restrict encryption. This is especially
troubling because it comes at a time of growing Congressional support
for legislation to promote privacy and security tools for the Net.
Of even more concern, the Administration is clearly attempting to use
the recent suspected terrorist incidents to push for a new and more
restrictive encryption policy.

If the Administration succeeds in passing new restrictions on
encryption as part of the new surveillance legislation, the future
of the Internet as a secure and trusted platform for commerce and
private communication will be threatened.

Some or all of these provisions may be included in a package voted
on by both houses by August 3rd. It is not clear what a final bill
will look like, and some of these provisions may not be considered by
Congress until later this summer.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS

The following organizations all urge you to take this action to combat the
surveillance initiatives. Check their Web pages for more background
information on these issues.

American Civil Liberties Union (http://www.aclu.org)
American Communication Association
Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org)
Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org)
EF-Austin (http://www.efa.org)
Electronic Privacy Information Center (http://www.epic.org)
Feminists for Free Expression
National Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org)
National Writers Union (http://www.nwu.org/nwu/)
People For the American Way (http://www.pfaw.org)
Voters Telecommunications Watch (http://www.vtw.org)
Wired Ventures Ltd. (http://www.hotwired.com)
======================================================================


the subject "help".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 14:55:05 -0700
From: Noble
To: femsupremacy@renaissoft.com
Subject: Re: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress
Message-ID: <32027939.7B2B@tiac.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

you can go to
http://www.mainartery.com/GOVERNMENT

to find the email address of your representative or senator in
Washington D.C. just click on e-mail addresses and it will bring you to
email address site.
Patricia
just another service brought to you by Mainartery


Christine & David Stevenson wrote:

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 14:23:08 -0800
To: telstar@wired.com
From: telstar@wired.com (--Todd Lappin--)
Subject: RED ALERT: Surveillance Legislation in Congress

Free speech isn't only for those with dangerous ideas; privacy isn't just
for suspected criminals.

As Internet users, we all have a stake in standing up for free speech *and*
privacy.

With your indulgence, I'm passing along an important alert regarding
several telecommunications surveillance proposals that Congress may
adopt... perhaps as soon as FRIDAY.

If you can, please call Congress on Friday to insist that our legislators
carefully consider the privacy implivations of any proposal to expland the
FBI's wiretap authority. Your call can make a very big difference.

Full details follow below.

Work the network!

--Todd Lappin--
Section Editor
WIRED Magazine

======================================================================
____ _____ ____ ___ _ _____ ____ _____
| _ \| ____| _ \ / _ \| | | ____| _ \_ _| CONGRESS RUSHING TO
| |_) | _| | | | | | |_| | | | _| | |_) || | ENACT SURVEILLANCE
| _ <| |___| |_| | | _ | |___| |___| _ < | | LEGISLATION. CALL
|_| \_\_____|____/ |_| |_|_____|_____|_| \_\|_| CONGRESS NOW! 8/1/96

REPOST THIS ALERT WHERE APPROPRIATE
DO NOT REDISTRIBUTE AFTER AUGUST 7, 1996
---------